Freeway driving in California @ 70>
#11
10-26-2005, 12:00 AM
Re: Freeway driving in California @ 70>
Not true. Mike Maline lives on the high desert...in CA.
Originally Posted by AndyTiedye
I notice that ALL of the hypermilers live OUTSIDE OF CALIFORNIA!
Odd, when we have the highest concentration of hybrids anywhere.
Could there be a pattern here?
California gas is 10% ethanol. This is a fairly recent development.
Sort of like being on "winter gas" all the time.
Odd, when we have the highest concentration of hybrids anywhere.
Could there be a pattern here?
California gas is 10% ethanol. This is a fairly recent development.
Sort of like being on "winter gas" all the time.
#12
10-26-2005, 12:16 AM
Re: Freeway driving in California @ 70>
Hi AndyTiedye:
___Kenny (#2 CVT based HCH - Valedictorian qual’ed hypermiler on the planet) lives smack dab in the middle of California and IIRC, drives the LA freeways daily. PM him for the details …
___We here in Illinois are not only are forced to use E10 but we get another present for 5 + months out of the year in our even more oxygenated – Winter Bland RFG
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Kenny (#2 CVT based HCH - Valedictorian qual’ed hypermiler on the planet) lives smack dab in the middle of California and IIRC, drives the LA freeways daily. PM him for the details …
___We here in Illinois are not only are forced to use E10 but we get another present for 5 + months out of the year in our even more oxygenated – Winter Bland RFG
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#13
10-26-2005, 04:22 AM
Re: Freeway driving in California @ 70>
Phase 1 RFG (minimum 2% Oxygen by mass) from Ethanol resulted in a 3% worst-case reduction in FE. This was for the E10 (actually 3.5% O2 by mass) case.
That's -1.5mpg at 50mpg, -1mpg at 33mpg. No further reduction for phase 2 RFG.
E10 exceeds the EPA requirement for oxygen, but appears to be used because its a nice round number.
Most places with RFG use MTBE or MTBE+ethanol providing 2.xx% O2. For straight MTBE, that's 1.6% FE reduction; for straight ethanol ("E7") that's 1.7%.
Less than 1mpg reduction for you 50mpg guys out there.
full 1997 Congressional report( chap 3 deals with FE):
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/ostpfin.pdf
details of 95-00 analysis of RFG sampling:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fue.../oxy-95-00.pdf
Interesting tidbit I gleaned from this:
The RFG program was designed for 'winter blend' to reduce CO primarily. In reality (sampling link below) it appears that there is minimal O2 content or additive difference between summer and winter blends, at least in 2000. I didn't scrub the report thoroughly, so I could have missed something there. Probably makes economic sense to just use a single process and sell it year-round. There's nothing in the law that says winter fuel cannot be sold in the summer.
So the summer/winter fuel mpg argument may be entirely in our heads?! I'd like to see an updated sampling analysis from 2004 to see if this is still the case.
Milwaukee and Chicago have been on E10 year-round for quite a while! Also minimal O2 difference between summer/winter blends there. No additional additives appear to be in the fuel even in winter.
That's -1.5mpg at 50mpg, -1mpg at 33mpg. No further reduction for phase 2 RFG.
E10 exceeds the EPA requirement for oxygen, but appears to be used because its a nice round number.
Most places with RFG use MTBE or MTBE+ethanol providing 2.xx% O2. For straight MTBE, that's 1.6% FE reduction; for straight ethanol ("E7") that's 1.7%.
Less than 1mpg reduction for you 50mpg guys out there.
full 1997 Congressional report( chap 3 deals with FE):
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/ostpfin.pdf
details of 95-00 analysis of RFG sampling:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fue.../oxy-95-00.pdf
Interesting tidbit I gleaned from this:
The RFG program was designed for 'winter blend' to reduce CO primarily. In reality (sampling link below) it appears that there is minimal O2 content or additive difference between summer and winter blends, at least in 2000. I didn't scrub the report thoroughly, so I could have missed something there. Probably makes economic sense to just use a single process and sell it year-round. There's nothing in the law that says winter fuel cannot be sold in the summer.
So the summer/winter fuel mpg argument may be entirely in our heads?! I'd like to see an updated sampling analysis from 2004 to see if this is still the case.
Milwaukee and Chicago have been on E10 year-round for quite a while! Also minimal O2 difference between summer/winter blends there. No additional additives appear to be in the fuel even in winter.
Last edited by gonavy; 10-26-2005 at 04:27 AM.
#14
10-26-2005, 09:33 AM
Re: Freeway driving in California @ 70>
Hi GoNavy:
___Sorry for going OT ... As posted in your other thread:
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Sorry for going OT ... As posted in your other thread:
Here in Illinois, we haven’t had even a trace amount of MTBE in years but it is mandated by law that we use E10. I am not saying this is an entirely bad thing because of its homegrown nature and GHG reduction but given it is corn based, it is a mistake for the loss of my FE and the overall Fuel’s actual attributes used from field to wheel … Your links bare the lack of MTBE out here in the Chicago area. There is a chemical difference between winter and summer blend RFG here (VOC and vapor pressure differences abound) in Northeastern IL. and Southwestern WI. It is in the gasoline formulation, not the Oxygenate additive that makes all the difference.
RFG Property and Performance Averages for Chicago-Lake Co., IL, Gary, IN
Information on Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) Properties and Emissions Performance by Area and Season - Methodolgy and Explanation
___Not only do us Illini get hit with E10 and Winter blend RFG, we also get hit with cold temps which is by far the hardest on everyone’s FE here in the Chicago area this time of year
I will not even go into the garbage high sulfur stuff we are forced to use. I think the EPA allowed the refiners to push HS fuel to the Milwaukee – Chicago – Gary corridor because of the prevailing Westerly’s diluting it out over Lake Michigan possibly? I would love gasoline from just about anywhere else but “dem der is da breaks”
RFG Property and Performance Averages for Chicago-Lake Co., IL, Gary, IN
Information on Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) Properties and Emissions Performance by Area and Season - Methodolgy and Explanation
___Not only do us Illini get hit with E10 and Winter blend RFG, we also get hit with cold temps which is by far the hardest on everyone’s FE here in the Chicago area this time of year
I will not even go into the garbage high sulfur stuff we are forced to use. I think the EPA allowed the refiners to push HS fuel to the Milwaukee – Chicago – Gary corridor because of the prevailing Westerly’s diluting it out over Lake Michigan possibly? I would love gasoline from just about anywhere else but “dem der is da breaks”
___Wayne R. Gerdes
#15
10-27-2005, 12:20 AM
Drafting = Tailgating?
Originally Posted by xcel
Hi Sam Hybrid:
look for a lengthy distance draft because running naked at that speed and above is going to hurt!
look for a lengthy distance draft because running naked at that speed and above is going to hurt!
#16
10-27-2005, 01:06 AM
Re: Drafting = Tailgating?
Originally Posted by AndyTiedye
How much of a draft can you really get unless you are following way too close?
#17
10-27-2005, 08:47 AM
Re: Freeway driving in California @ 70>
I tailgate when I draft I do it big time on I-5 north of Sac (mainly in our Prius Gen I) and occasionally in more hilly country with my FEH. On the Prius you can feel it drop into the pocket, on the FEH it is much more subtle. Either way I keep very alert when I am doing it.
I got over 50 MPH on a Sacramento round trip in our Gen I Prius a few years back, mainly my drafting on I-5 (Round trip is 240 miles, 160 of which is 2 lane mountain roads). It took a lot more out of me than a normal trip.
I got over 50 MPH on a Sacramento round trip in our Gen I Prius a few years back, mainly my drafting on I-5 (Round trip is 240 miles, 160 of which is 2 lane mountain roads). It took a lot more out of me than a normal trip.
#18
10-27-2005, 04:58 PM
Re: Freeway driving in California @ 70>
Hi AndyTiedye:
___A distance, surf, and traffic side draft is what everyone does/receives daily if they live in an area with congested traffic of any sort. Name a major city and you have performed all 3 let alone a close in. Everybody follows to close unless you live in the upper Midwest/West where there isn’t traffic congestion. Ever hear the term Bumper to bumper at 70 mph? We have it in Chicago and I have driven in this kind of traffic congestion in Indianapolis, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Orlando, Phoenix, San Francisco, and LA to name a few.
___A close draft is within the vortex. A distance is just behind it. You can feel the buffet as you both enter and exit either of them respectively.
___Stevewa, drafting begins to work well enough to see on an FCD at speeds over ~ 40 mph … Watch your FCD while behind various drafts at various speeds to see for yourself. Just be careful out there is all.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___A distance, surf, and traffic side draft is what everyone does/receives daily if they live in an area with congested traffic of any sort. Name a major city and you have performed all 3 let alone a close in. Everybody follows to close unless you live in the upper Midwest/West where there isn’t traffic congestion. Ever hear the term Bumper to bumper at 70 mph? We have it in Chicago and I have driven in this kind of traffic congestion in Indianapolis, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Orlando, Phoenix, San Francisco, and LA to name a few.
___A close draft is within the vortex. A distance is just behind it. You can feel the buffet as you both enter and exit either of them respectively.
___Stevewa, drafting begins to work well enough to see on an FCD at speeds over ~ 40 mph … Watch your FCD while behind various drafts at various speeds to see for yourself. Just be careful out there is all.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
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