I "think" HO was "invented" pre WWII.

My Uncle needed a hobby to "calm his nerves" ( after a bit of shell shock ) when he got out of WWII. He was on the front lines in Europe. He has since passed on, and I inherited much of his rolling stock, all post WWII, but just by a few years on some of it.

And yes... the dynamic brakes on modern diesels are like the regen in our cars... or should we say our cars are like the trains? They came first!

OK here we go again.

In diesel electric trains or lets use boats. Torque is far greater in electric motors for a given size and it is always there when on. ICE it is variable. Since torque gets you rolling or sailing then we will start here. If it takes less energy to move a boat or FEH using electric motors and since electricity can be generated by the ICE then the FEH will use less energy to start then the when started by the ICE alone. We all understand the gains in regen braking and no ICE at idle and the logic of not running the ICE when you are standing still. These add nothing to the ICE efficiency but rather just ignore it or take it out of the equation when not in use. Fine. However if you look into diesel electric boats they are using a small generator to power the electric motor and while it would seem to be far less powerful than the good old ICE in the boat it is actually equal or more powerful due to its superior torque and efficiency. The replacement on the boat with one large genny and one smaller electric motor instead of one ICE for the prop and one ICE for the genny and several large batteries weighing in at about 700 lbs makes the Diesel electric more space effecient and more FE and about the same cost to buy but about 1/3 to 1/2 less fuel will be used and a whole lot less maintenance.

Since diesels have more torque than gasoline engines for an equal size and since diesel has a bit more energy in each gallon the diesel genny to recharge and drive the FEH would be a far better choice but this would be more to make and certify smog wise and since the ICE is already here then it's what we get. More torque will spin a bigger genny which can run at a lower rpm which will like ALL DIESELS use less fuel.

If you can generate electricity using less fuel AND you use an electric motor to drive the wheels all the time you would have a better product than what we have now. Higher FE which is what we are after. However If doing this means you have to start from scratch then it might cost so much that no one will buy it so all things must answer to the $$$ line. There is no doubt that a bio diesel powered FEH would get much better FE and would have even lower emissions. We could distill our own fuel in the garage and it would cost about $1/gallon using waste vegetable oil. Not something the feds or the oil comp what to hear and so we will not likely see one.


As for trains when you look at those old time steam locos and all those cars know one thing those 200 cars did not weigh in at 100 tons or 125 tons each like they do today. They were more like 40-60 ton cars.

The limiting factor to train length today is the air brake system as anything over about 100 cars requires an air brake compressor to be added. This is why you see loco's in the middle or at the end of these long trains it is to help overcome the air leaks in the system. If you loose air pressure the brakes engage and the whole thing stops rolling. I worked for 20 years repairing RR Rolling stock both freight and passenger.

One thing folks forget is that steam locos are very dirty and dangerous beats. They caused a lot of fires from all the sparks coming out of those stacks.

[quote=08kermit;161623]

To avoid mixed units (watt-hours, horsepower, BTU,
joules, calories, whatever), let's make up a universal energy unit I'll call
"Noodle" which applies to both electric and ICE domains.

==========

It seems like we're all trying to be armchair powertrain engineers, so I pulled out a couple of automotive engineering references and texts from the late 1990s. ( I have studied enough mechanical engineering and wrenched enough race cars to know something about powertrains).

Depending upon which branch of transportation, and which continent and which era you are in, the units of energy you use will vary. My references describe energy in units of Joules (Euros) Kw-hours (Euros and electrical guys), Horsepower-Hours (Yanks and Brits), and my favorite, "Coal-equivalent-tons" (probably you steam locos).

Here is an interesting assertion, based on a chart of typical 1985 carburetted engines: "As passenger automobiles are now designed, it is not possible to run on a level road at constant speed anywhere close to the regime of best fuel economy. To get closer to the BSFC [brake-specific fuel consumption, a measure of engine efficiency] minimum it would be necessary to reduce the final drive ratio substantially - that is, reduce the engine speed... normal overdrive does not bring the operating point very near the BSFC minimum." Indeed, for carb'd cars in 1985, BSFC min was around 70% of actual actual cruise consumption.

Nothing in my books about Atkinson cycle fuel injected engines, so I think its time to update my reference materials.

08kermit — The quote in your second-to-last paragraph is both relevant and correct. One could make a regular automobile more fuel efficient under steady-state driving conditions (constant speed on a flat road) by having an assortment of "super-overdrive" gear ratios available to "lug" its ICE. This would force the ICE to run at a more efficient operating point at the power level required at that speed. The trouble is that a big (read "powerful") ICE is not very efficient at the low powers required for such steady-state driving. Far better is to make a smaller (read "less powerful") but more efficient ICE, like an Atkinson/Miller-cycle engine, and use the two electric motors to regulate the speed at which the ICE runs so as to achieve highly efficient, low-rpm ICE operation under these conditions. That's precisely what a Toyota/Ford-type full hybrid design does! Indeed, at high speeds in "heretical mode" the ICE is being lugged in precisely this way by MG1 (the "generator") using electrical power coming from MG2 (the "traction motor"). The ECVT gives the designers the option to do things like this that aren't feasible in normal vehicles. The even more complicated (and expensive) two-mode hybrid systems now appearing have an even greater capability to control the ICE's rpm over the vehicle's full speed range, and to tow significant loads too.

Stan

Saw this today.... file it under the "nothing ever comes for free" category.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ollution_N.htm

Like most news articles, its sensationalized and likely way overstates the negatives. But lets not fool ourselves. Electricity from the wall is not "free energy" and at this point, not even particularly clean energy.

Looks like a worst case scenario type of article and the last paragraph cancels out most, if not all, of the doom and gloom they were hyping.

While I see this stuff often I also see a lot of other articles in the audio and video field that I am working in and have to laugh at all the half truths and out right misinformation. I have learned that they are wrong about as much as they are right. especially early on when they are deep into the big new technology learning curve.

So I do my own research and draw my own conclusions.

I was told by someone in the commercial electrical field that Photovoltaics don't even return the electricity it takes to make them. I thought this was wrong but serious enough to research. I found an exhaustive study that showed worst case it was a tick over 2 years to replace the energy it took to make them. The guy was passing on info that IMO was in his companies best interest. They sell electrical switching and panels most used in the wind generating Field. PV are too small and thus would put them out of business if we all went in this direction. Often there are political agendas. You just have to dig a bit to discover them. Sad that this stuff happens as more are harmed then benefited by this type of stuff.

All more proof of who is ruling the Earth.

evnut.com

It's an awesome website. Debunks all EV myths.

Darrelldd is the man. Lots to learn. it's all there.

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.

Noodles ae high calories (energy), too!

2008 FWD Escape Hybrid