Freeway... and downtown
#1
06-04-2005, 06:49 AM
Freeway... and downtown
I am on my second tank of gas for my HAH. So far I am getting in the mid 30's for MPG on the freeway. However I live in downtow San Diego, CA and I have to do quite a bit of driving in town. When driving in those conditions I get at best 16 MPG. It is alot bettter than my old car I must say. The only complaint that I have is.. I have to do a LOT of start and stop at STOP signs and the Autostop feature works hard here. If you do not time your braking well or there is some one in front of you at the same stop sign the Autostop my engadge and disengadge several times. Gets to be a bit rough at times. One solution that I found was to put the Automatic in 2 gear so that the Autostop can not work. Then when I get into more reasonable driving conditions I put is back into drive. Does anyone else have any other ideas to deal with that?
Sdybrid
Sdybrid
#3
06-04-2005, 09:47 AM
Re: Freeway... and downtown
Yeah, only we city slickers and suburban commuters would experience thison a regular basis for it to be a nuisance...
A suggestion I have forming in my head for Honda is to implement a feature that detects when you are rolling and intermittently pressing the gas and brakes at, say, <10mph (a la freeway backup or approaching a city stop when traffic tends slides forward a bit). The car would not shut off the engine but instead go into 'eco' since 3 cylinders can certainly handle such conditions. This way the engine stays on as you crawl thru traffic- making the ride easier- yet does not suck gas like the V6 it is. Autostop would still come on if you went from this 'crawl' condition to a complete stop for more than a few seconds. And if you are smoothly decelerating from speed, autostop would still operate as it does now. Perhaps a 'traffic jam' button on the dash could be pressed by the driver to dis/enable this feature instead of making the car guess when these conditions exist. (I tend to prefer the ability to manually override features, though).
In the meantime, your shifting method works, or you can turn on one of the defroster settings- the AC stays on, keeping the engine on. (Note that just having the AC on does not keep the engine on.) This way, no shifting is needed.
A suggestion I have forming in my head for Honda is to implement a feature that detects when you are rolling and intermittently pressing the gas and brakes at, say, <10mph (a la freeway backup or approaching a city stop when traffic tends slides forward a bit). The car would not shut off the engine but instead go into 'eco' since 3 cylinders can certainly handle such conditions. This way the engine stays on as you crawl thru traffic- making the ride easier- yet does not suck gas like the V6 it is. Autostop would still come on if you went from this 'crawl' condition to a complete stop for more than a few seconds. And if you are smoothly decelerating from speed, autostop would still operate as it does now. Perhaps a 'traffic jam' button on the dash could be pressed by the driver to dis/enable this feature instead of making the car guess when these conditions exist. (I tend to prefer the ability to manually override features, though).
In the meantime, your shifting method works, or you can turn on one of the defroster settings- the AC stays on, keeping the engine on. (Note that just having the AC on does not keep the engine on.) This way, no shifting is needed.
#5
06-04-2005, 12:16 PM
Re: Freeway... and downtown
Hi Sdhybrid:
___Although there are plenty of caveat’s of a Shift to neutral - Forced Autostop while moving w/ an Automatic transmission, there are none to a Forced Autostop when actually stopped in an AH. In fact, this technique is a god send to lessen a hybrid and non-hybrids alike poor FE in an all inner city - stop and go environment. Forced-Autostops when actually stopped should be as natural to you as the AH’s normal Autostop when the logic has been made up given the description of your own inner city commute. The MDX with just 3 miles on her (I filled her up this morning) is sitting in the drive at 28.0 mpg and I had plenty of stop signs, lights, and traffic to run through before I arrived home. Maybe not a deep inner city environment but it sure is not an all highway drive by any stretch of the imagination. Forced Autostop was worth maybe 5 - 6 mpg of that 28 mpg as displayed on her FCD and will hopefully help you with your efforts to achieve even higher FE in your AH in an all city environment.
___Although I have posted this in the past, this thread appears to be as sound a place as any to repost …
Japanese Government to Promote Manual “Idling Stop”
Kyodo News reports that the Japanese government is planning to take its “idling stop” campaign from buses and taxis and other commercial vehicles to the general car-owning population in an effort to save fuel and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The proposed idling-stop campaign is the low-tech version of a hybrid stop-start system: manually turning off the engine when the vehicle is stopped for more than a very short time in traffic or at an intersection.
Although vehicles equipped with automatic idling stop devices are on the increase (such as the hot-selling Toyota Vitz—earlier post), and the Japanese government extends subsidies to commercial firms which use such vehicles, there is no such incentive for private cars.
Automatic idling-stop (or stop-start) systems save a significant amount of fuel, especially in cities.
The Energy Conservation Center of Japan, affiliated with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, carried out a three-week test in the summer of 2002 using two cars of the same make and model—one with an automatic idling cut-off and the other without it.
On open roads between cities there was not much difference between the two vehicles in fuel-saving because stops were few, but even so, the vehicle with the idling-prevention device used 3.4% less gasoline that the other car. In cities, however, fuel consumption dropped 13.4%.
A center official said that since the saving on fuel was large, “Operators of buses running on regular routes in cities, those of home-delivery trucks, and taxi companies have begun to actively introduce the practice.”
However, impatient drivers do not like to turn off their engines at traffic light stops because they want to get off to a fast start when the lights change.
With improved efficiency in starters and batteries, turning off the engine for a short time poses almost no problem, but even so many drivers find it a heavy psychological burden to deliberately turn off the engine by using the key.
The idea of drivers shutting of their vehicles to spare the air is not new. The state of Oregon, for example, advises drivers to turn off their engines after more than 10 seconds of idling on Clean Air Action Days.
This sounds like it might be the first broad-based national initiative to undertake the practice—at least recently.
___With that, an IMA start is about as smooth a start as any I have ever experienced. If the Autostop logic has not been made up in your AH, shut her down manually. Wishing for an alternative autostop logic and such is kind of like spitting into the wind. It is not worthy of your time and the outcome is less then to be desired for the most part
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Although there are plenty of caveat’s of a Shift to neutral - Forced Autostop while moving w/ an Automatic transmission, there are none to a Forced Autostop when actually stopped in an AH. In fact, this technique is a god send to lessen a hybrid and non-hybrids alike poor FE in an all inner city - stop and go environment. Forced-Autostops when actually stopped should be as natural to you as the AH’s normal Autostop when the logic has been made up given the description of your own inner city commute. The MDX with just 3 miles on her (I filled her up this morning) is sitting in the drive at 28.0 mpg and I had plenty of stop signs, lights, and traffic to run through before I arrived home. Maybe not a deep inner city environment but it sure is not an all highway drive by any stretch of the imagination. Forced Autostop was worth maybe 5 - 6 mpg of that 28 mpg as displayed on her FCD and will hopefully help you with your efforts to achieve even higher FE in your AH in an all city environment.
___Although I have posted this in the past, this thread appears to be as sound a place as any to repost …
Japanese Government to Promote Manual “Idling Stop”
Kyodo News reports that the Japanese government is planning to take its “idling stop” campaign from buses and taxis and other commercial vehicles to the general car-owning population in an effort to save fuel and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The proposed idling-stop campaign is the low-tech version of a hybrid stop-start system: manually turning off the engine when the vehicle is stopped for more than a very short time in traffic or at an intersection.
Although vehicles equipped with automatic idling stop devices are on the increase (such as the hot-selling Toyota Vitz—earlier post), and the Japanese government extends subsidies to commercial firms which use such vehicles, there is no such incentive for private cars.
Automatic idling-stop (or stop-start) systems save a significant amount of fuel, especially in cities.
The Energy Conservation Center of Japan, affiliated with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, carried out a three-week test in the summer of 2002 using two cars of the same make and model—one with an automatic idling cut-off and the other without it.
On open roads between cities there was not much difference between the two vehicles in fuel-saving because stops were few, but even so, the vehicle with the idling-prevention device used 3.4% less gasoline that the other car. In cities, however, fuel consumption dropped 13.4%.
A center official said that since the saving on fuel was large, “Operators of buses running on regular routes in cities, those of home-delivery trucks, and taxi companies have begun to actively introduce the practice.”
However, impatient drivers do not like to turn off their engines at traffic light stops because they want to get off to a fast start when the lights change.
With improved efficiency in starters and batteries, turning off the engine for a short time poses almost no problem, but even so many drivers find it a heavy psychological burden to deliberately turn off the engine by using the key.
The idea of drivers shutting of their vehicles to spare the air is not new. The state of Oregon, for example, advises drivers to turn off their engines after more than 10 seconds of idling on Clean Air Action Days.
This sounds like it might be the first broad-based national initiative to undertake the practice—at least recently.
___With that, an IMA start is about as smooth a start as any I have ever experienced. If the Autostop logic has not been made up in your AH, shut her down manually. Wishing for an alternative autostop logic and such is kind of like spitting into the wind. It is not worthy of your time and the outcome is less then to be desired for the most part
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#7
06-04-2005, 02:10 PM
Re: Freeway... and downtown
B4 I had the AH I would shut off my Cavalier at lights, and I've trained my wife to do the same in her SUV. This does not address the problem of traffic jams, though- where one is coasting, stopping, sliding 20 feet forward, stopping, rolling at 8mph for a block or 2, etc. This is identical conditions to a Beltway jam. Granted, our AHs are still doing better than any other 6 cylinder out there in the same situation, thanks to autostop, but it can be soo much better- the software could allow the 'eco' mode to be used in these sustained low-speed (crawl) conditions, where any acceleration is slow and short-lived at best. The constant shutoffs dont bother me- its knowing that I COULD be running on 3 cylinders instead of 6 at 5 mph that do. I have no illusions as to the complexity of thei 'simple' enhancement, so I do not hold my breath. But the potential is there. Any chance the AH computer OS is Linux> ...maybe the freeware community can hack it and add the feature (lol).
#8
06-04-2005, 03:36 PM
Re: Freeway... and downtown
Hmm...two issues to address here...
a. Engaging auto-stop vs. not, with the variable of 'continually' / 'at all' thrown in
b. Engaging VCM at idling speed
With regard to the first...the way that I interpret the OP (original poster) is that he worries about continually engaging it, for what winds up being short periods of time (and thus causing the pack, etc, hardship). I worry about this myself; in urban city driving (which I'm often in), there's not much to be done here except grit your teeth and hope that the pack doesn't get down past 3 bars (at which you'll almost assuredly be force charging, once you gain some room / speed, further taxing the ICE).
For those not aware of the differences in the AH's auto-stop logic, compared to the Insight / HCH, the AH will not initialize auto-stop until < 10mph, so there's not much coast factor here. However - it will *re-engage* after crawling forward, once the car has come to a complete stop for 1 full second. Per the service manual, it "will only do this twice" - however, I will readily dispute this, based on my experience (I may be accellerating past the re-initialize point, however, which is supposedly 12mph, but I can re-init at 10mph). The vehicle idles at 7mph, so you don't need much to re-init - more distance than speed, in my experience.
One thing that will help here - resist the urge to creep forward constantly. Try and stay behind a bit, especially if it can be made obvious to others that it doesn't make a whit of difference if you move forward 3 feet. Stoplights with a long line of cars, of which you're a bit of the way back, are good for this. Time your restart so that you're rolling up to your lead car as they're just starting to move forward. This is tricky, and I haven't mastered it yet, btw. Too soon, and you'll be auto-stopped again. Too late, and you risk the wrath of the drivers behind you, which can be disconcerting to say the least. If you think explaining the concept of 'hybrid' to the unenlightened is daunting, try explaining 'auto-stop' to someone and see if they don't think it's practically rocket science - it goes against everything they've learned about keeping an ICE running, not taxing the 12v battery, etc, etc.
That being said, I do engage the auto-stop, and don't try and defeat it, except for one instance - when I *know* for a fact that as soon as I auto-stop, traffic will move again for a good distance; ie, restarting from a light. (I'm talking sub-seconds here; you'd be surprised how often this happens to me). In this one case, what I'll do is ease off the brake just before 10mph, and try and avoid use of the pack for < 1 sec worth of auto-stop. Again, don't do this in deadlocked traffic - only when you can see that traffic will start moving again on a continual basis. Since I've been coasting or braking when this occurs, I've had fuel-cut for a significant period of time, anyway, so that has to help somewhat, IMO.
In short, be alert in your environment
In summary, little stops help with FE (very slightly) and the environment (more important) - don't defeat the logic; however, the very smallest stops are eligible for 'user discretion', IMO. This may apply more specifically to the AH, given it's revised auto-stop logic, than Honda's other hybrids. However, as I drive the AH daily, this is my experience after nearly 10K on the odo
Now....on to VCM at idle speeds... (don't worry, this one's shorter!
While I'm not an engineer, I'm thinking that there is a certain point at which VCM can't engage and maintain drivability. And I believe this is at < 15mph or so. Reasons:
- VCM doesn't engage below 18mph (20, per the manual, but I'm telling you differently, again based on experience Given Honda's engineering prowess, do you think they would have used VCM in a narrower speed band than absolutely possible ? (yes, this is debatable for the top-end, at 82mph (ie, they could continue it past this point), but I think the lower-end is as low as they could make it work well.
- When I have VCM engaged at that 18mph, dropping 3mph will produce a *noticable* lugging on the ICE - a sure sign that it's not in an efficient operating range. When I notice this, I try and bring the ICE out of that lugging condition - for both efficiency's sake, and for the sake of a refined driving experience - especially when I have passengers in the car. Whether you recognize it or not, Honda, Toyota, et al, have enlisted us early-adopters as salespeople (ambassadors, if you will) of this technology. We have a responsibility to help 'spread the gospel' on hybridization (which most of us warmly embrace - otherwise, why would we all be on this site ?
That's all for now...I have to leave for game 2 of the AHL finals now. And for those who noted I stated I'd refrain from posting while the 'furry green monster' was still eating my posts....you can thank a certain poster's ill-devised reply on another thread for bringing me back so soon. I'll be writing my reply to that post tomorrow - and those of you who stay tuned for it may want to have a glass of ice water handy
PS: gonavy - I'll bet the firmware is in some variant of C - provides for some of the tightest code, and it's reliable enough (using one example) to keep those minutemen in their silos (until the sad day comes when we really want the birds to fly). Since Linux is a variant of Posix / Unix, which was all based on C, however, you're probably technically right...
a. Engaging auto-stop vs. not, with the variable of 'continually' / 'at all' thrown in
b. Engaging VCM at idling speed
With regard to the first...the way that I interpret the OP (original poster) is that he worries about continually engaging it, for what winds up being short periods of time (and thus causing the pack, etc, hardship). I worry about this myself; in urban city driving (which I'm often in), there's not much to be done here except grit your teeth and hope that the pack doesn't get down past 3 bars (at which you'll almost assuredly be force charging, once you gain some room / speed, further taxing the ICE).
For those not aware of the differences in the AH's auto-stop logic, compared to the Insight / HCH, the AH will not initialize auto-stop until < 10mph, so there's not much coast factor here. However - it will *re-engage* after crawling forward, once the car has come to a complete stop for 1 full second. Per the service manual, it "will only do this twice" - however, I will readily dispute this, based on my experience (I may be accellerating past the re-initialize point, however, which is supposedly 12mph, but I can re-init at 10mph). The vehicle idles at 7mph, so you don't need much to re-init - more distance than speed, in my experience.
One thing that will help here - resist the urge to creep forward constantly. Try and stay behind a bit, especially if it can be made obvious to others that it doesn't make a whit of difference if you move forward 3 feet. Stoplights with a long line of cars, of which you're a bit of the way back, are good for this. Time your restart so that you're rolling up to your lead car as they're just starting to move forward. This is tricky, and I haven't mastered it yet, btw. Too soon, and you'll be auto-stopped again. Too late, and you risk the wrath of the drivers behind you, which can be disconcerting to say the least. If you think explaining the concept of 'hybrid' to the unenlightened is daunting, try explaining 'auto-stop' to someone and see if they don't think it's practically rocket science - it goes against everything they've learned about keeping an ICE running, not taxing the 12v battery, etc, etc.
That being said, I do engage the auto-stop, and don't try and defeat it, except for one instance - when I *know* for a fact that as soon as I auto-stop, traffic will move again for a good distance; ie, restarting from a light. (I'm talking sub-seconds here; you'd be surprised how often this happens to me). In this one case, what I'll do is ease off the brake just before 10mph, and try and avoid use of the pack for < 1 sec worth of auto-stop. Again, don't do this in deadlocked traffic - only when you can see that traffic will start moving again on a continual basis. Since I've been coasting or braking when this occurs, I've had fuel-cut for a significant period of time, anyway, so that has to help somewhat, IMO.
In short, be alert in your environment
In summary, little stops help with FE (very slightly) and the environment (more important) - don't defeat the logic; however, the very smallest stops are eligible for 'user discretion', IMO. This may apply more specifically to the AH, given it's revised auto-stop logic, than Honda's other hybrids. However, as I drive the AH daily, this is my experience after nearly 10K on the odo
Now....on to VCM at idle speeds... (don't worry, this one's shorter!
While I'm not an engineer, I'm thinking that there is a certain point at which VCM can't engage and maintain drivability. And I believe this is at < 15mph or so. Reasons:
- VCM doesn't engage below 18mph (20, per the manual, but I'm telling you differently, again based on experience
Given Honda's engineering prowess, do you think they would have used VCM in a narrower speed band than absolutely possible ? (yes, this is debatable for the top-end, at 82mph (ie, they could continue it past this point), but I think the lower-end is as low as they could make it work well.- When I have VCM engaged at that 18mph, dropping 3mph will produce a *noticable* lugging on the ICE - a sure sign that it's not in an efficient operating range. When I notice this, I try and bring the ICE out of that lugging condition - for both efficiency's sake, and for the sake of a refined driving experience - especially when I have passengers in the car. Whether you recognize it or not, Honda, Toyota, et al, have enlisted us early-adopters as salespeople (ambassadors, if you will) of this technology. We have a responsibility to help 'spread the gospel' on hybridization (which most of us warmly embrace - otherwise, why would we all be on this site ?
That's all for now...I have to leave for game 2 of the AHL finals now. And for those who noted I stated I'd refrain from posting while the 'furry green monster' was still eating my posts....you can thank a certain poster's ill-devised reply on another thread for bringing me back so soon. I'll be writing my reply to that post tomorrow - and those of you who stay tuned for it may want to have a glass of ice water handy
PS: gonavy - I'll bet the firmware is in some variant of C - provides for some of the tightest code, and it's reliable enough (using one example) to keep those minutemen in their silos (until the sad day comes when we really want the birds to fly). Since Linux is a variant of Posix / Unix, which was all based on C, however, you're probably technically right...
#9
06-04-2005, 04:01 PM
Re: Freeway... and downtown
Wow I had no idea that my orginal messege would create this much internest..very cool.
My real worry about the auto stop engadging all the time in city driving is the ware and tare and all the Hardware that makes it work. I am assuming that the engine does not start like a standard car..ie with a standard starter ect. At least I hope not.. On a typical drive in the city the car may start 20+ times..no joke. Then multiply that for the life of the car...that is alot of stress on that hardware. Not to mention the IMA. I have faith that Honda builds quality..but how much can a car take?
Any thoughts?
My real worry about the auto stop engadging all the time in city driving is the ware and tare and all the Hardware that makes it work. I am assuming that the engine does not start like a standard car..ie with a standard starter ect. At least I hope not.. On a typical drive in the city the car may start 20+ times..no joke. Then multiply that for the life of the car...that is alot of stress on that hardware. Not to mention the IMA. I have faith that Honda builds quality..but how much can a car take?
Any thoughts?
#10
06-04-2005, 05:29 PM
Re: Freeway... and downtown
Hi GoNavy:
___With every automobile, there are compromises. In the type of stop and go you describe, you simply have to work the problem. I travel from one side of the Chicago tollway system almost to the other and like most in my area; I have been stuck in the occasional 5 - 7 mile crawl and it happens on a more frequent basis then you may know. With that, now comes your stop and go traffic - hypermiling techniques. You build the largest buffer you can and do not let that car stop moving. I don’t care if 20 cars fill in that buffer ahead of you; you keep rebuilding it so that you can crawl at a speed of 10 - 20 or so mph. If you **** someone off, so what! They are only going to be 10 - 20 cars ahead of you after the traffic dissipates 5 miles down the road anyway. Once traffic is actually stopped, then you had better be in neutral, that ICE had better be shut down, and you had better be coasting into that bumper in front of you. If while in this bumper to bumper nightmare you have a downhill slope of any type, you had better have that car in Neutral, the ICE shut down, and you had better be crawling in a slow 2 - 12 mph coast trading away whatever potential is available to you for that long slow crawl. While accidentally stuck on some guys bumper in that stop and go traffic nightmare with your ICE shut down, if the bumper in front of you moves 8 feet, YOU STAY EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE AND LEAVE THE ICE SHUTDOWN! Let him move 20 - 100 ft. before you start her back up and begin moving forward again. You might actually save 3 IMA starts per 100’ with this one technique alone by the description posted. If you do not use some of these techniques, you had better get used to sub par FE no matter what car you own and what traffic you encounter. Wishing for, hoping for, wanting a better, etc. sure but that isn’t in the cards for the IMA equipped Honda’s right now. There are guys hacking the Insight’s ECU for higher mileage today and do you know what? I haven’t read of a single ECU hacked/modded MIMA owner knocking the hell out of Rick Reese’ or my lmpg’s no matter how few tanks have been traversed with the mod to date. You are not driving an HSD equipped Toyota or an eCVT equipped Ford in this kind of traffic so move on and work the problem when in those traffic snarls that make the average driver in all of us scream.
___Bluntly. It can be done, it is done on a daily basis, and it will continue to be done for higher FE then you ever thought possible. You just have to think farther ahead then the traffic surrounding you and force what isn’t made up because of some locked down logic or capability thought up by a group guys and gals sitting behind their computer screens running a sim set. This is how you murder EPA estimates day after day. This includes not only beating the EPA test(s) but beating the guys and gals that actually designed your car. If you have a traffic problem, work around it. 85% of the time, it will help. The 15% of the time you guess incorrectly are lessons learned from which you can improve your chances of success the next time you get stuck in a similar situation.
___Sdhybrid, 10 IMA starts per mile is about the going rate I would use in the Insight on a particularly nasty 5 + mile stretch of I294/I94 here in the Chicago area in the evening rush. If the autostop logic was not made up, it was forced autostop. I would lose 1 of 20 bars off the SoC meter every 10 - 15 starts and when in that kind of traffic, regen was the last of my concerns until I saw 17 or less bars. When traffic speeds pick back up, you would be surprised how fast your SoC will be pulled right back up as well. In regards to IMA starts, they were designed exactly for this and not only is your automobile already warm, the pistons, cylinders, and rotating parts (bearings and sleeves) already have a nice coating of lubricant that has not had the chance to drain away for hours on end as they do when you park for the night. An IMA start consists of an ~ 400 millisecond spin up to ~ 1,000 RPM before light off instead of a lugging 150 RPM light off that most non-hybrid’s have to contend with. You do not have to worry about startup wear and tear in heavy traffic given the car is already up to temp and IMA starts are extremely smooth and non-destructive. I am sure you have already noticed this many times. Just wait until that 0 degree day sometime in your future when the smallish 12V battery and starter engage for the first time. You will think something just exploded under the hood by comparison Warm IMA starts are nothing in comparison to even a cold IMA start but just imagine what kind of wear and tear is created from lugged 150 RPM non-hybrid startup? Just thinking about it makes me cringe.
___A few other tips. I let the idle steady out before forcing an autostop myself. I do not have an explanation as to why this helps but emissions wise, I think it is the right thing to do? Another tip I should mention here only pertains to the NAVI equipped Accord’s. Do not force an autostop and reboot too quickly. I lost my Average and Trip distance data in the TC display once last month when forcing an Autostop at a light by rebooting to quickly. The car didn’t actually shut down and when I turned the ignition back to Ignition II, the Accord was idling away and my average went from 48.x something to 6.x and my range data went from 350 + miles to 0 miles in the blink of an eye. Since your AH’s NAVI TC has a sub-routine for autostop logic programmed into it, this may not happen to you but just in case, I do a 1, 1000, 2, 1000 before booting her back up now.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___With every automobile, there are compromises. In the type of stop and go you describe, you simply have to work the problem. I travel from one side of the Chicago tollway system almost to the other and like most in my area; I have been stuck in the occasional 5 - 7 mile crawl and it happens on a more frequent basis then you may know. With that, now comes your stop and go traffic - hypermiling techniques. You build the largest buffer you can and do not let that car stop moving. I don’t care if 20 cars fill in that buffer ahead of you; you keep rebuilding it so that you can crawl at a speed of 10 - 20 or so mph. If you **** someone off, so what! They are only going to be 10 - 20 cars ahead of you after the traffic dissipates 5 miles down the road anyway. Once traffic is actually stopped, then you had better be in neutral, that ICE had better be shut down, and you had better be coasting into that bumper in front of you. If while in this bumper to bumper nightmare you have a downhill slope of any type, you had better have that car in Neutral, the ICE shut down, and you had better be crawling in a slow 2 - 12 mph coast trading away whatever potential is available to you for that long slow crawl. While accidentally stuck on some guys bumper in that stop and go traffic nightmare with your ICE shut down, if the bumper in front of you moves 8 feet, YOU STAY EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE AND LEAVE THE ICE SHUTDOWN! Let him move 20 - 100 ft. before you start her back up and begin moving forward again. You might actually save 3 IMA starts per 100’ with this one technique alone by the description posted. If you do not use some of these techniques, you had better get used to sub par FE no matter what car you own and what traffic you encounter. Wishing for, hoping for, wanting a better, etc. sure but that isn’t in the cards for the IMA equipped Honda’s right now. There are guys hacking the Insight’s ECU for higher mileage today and do you know what? I haven’t read of a single ECU hacked/modded MIMA owner knocking the hell out of Rick Reese’ or my lmpg’s no matter how few tanks have been traversed with the mod to date. You are not driving an HSD equipped Toyota or an eCVT equipped Ford in this kind of traffic so move on and work the problem when in those traffic snarls that make the average driver in all of us scream.
___Bluntly. It can be done, it is done on a daily basis, and it will continue to be done for higher FE then you ever thought possible. You just have to think farther ahead then the traffic surrounding you and force what isn’t made up because of some locked down logic or capability thought up by a group guys and gals sitting behind their computer screens running a sim set. This is how you murder EPA estimates day after day. This includes not only beating the EPA test(s) but beating the guys and gals that actually designed your car. If you have a traffic problem, work around it. 85% of the time, it will help. The 15% of the time you guess incorrectly are lessons learned from which you can improve your chances of success the next time you get stuck in a similar situation.
___Sdhybrid, 10 IMA starts per mile is about the going rate I would use in the Insight on a particularly nasty 5 + mile stretch of I294/I94 here in the Chicago area in the evening rush. If the autostop logic was not made up, it was forced autostop. I would lose 1 of 20 bars off the SoC meter every 10 - 15 starts and when in that kind of traffic, regen was the last of my concerns until I saw 17 or less bars. When traffic speeds pick back up, you would be surprised how fast your SoC will be pulled right back up as well. In regards to IMA starts, they were designed exactly for this and not only is your automobile already warm, the pistons, cylinders, and rotating parts (bearings and sleeves) already have a nice coating of lubricant that has not had the chance to drain away for hours on end as they do when you park for the night. An IMA start consists of an ~ 400 millisecond spin up to ~ 1,000 RPM before light off instead of a lugging 150 RPM light off that most non-hybrid’s have to contend with. You do not have to worry about startup wear and tear in heavy traffic given the car is already up to temp and IMA starts are extremely smooth and non-destructive. I am sure you have already noticed this many times. Just wait until that 0 degree day sometime in your future when the smallish 12V battery and starter engage for the first time. You will think something just exploded under the hood by comparison
Warm IMA starts are nothing in comparison to even a cold IMA start but just imagine what kind of wear and tear is created from lugged 150 RPM non-hybrid startup? Just thinking about it makes me cringe.___A few other tips. I let the idle steady out before forcing an autostop myself. I do not have an explanation as to why this helps but emissions wise, I think it is the right thing to do? Another tip I should mention here only pertains to the NAVI equipped Accord’s. Do not force an autostop and reboot too quickly. I lost my Average and Trip distance data in the TC display once last month when forcing an Autostop at a light by rebooting to quickly. The car didn’t actually shut down and when I turned the ignition back to Ignition II, the Accord was idling away and my average went from 48.x something to 6.x and my range data went from 350 + miles to 0 miles in the blink of an eye. Since your AH’s NAVI TC has a sub-routine for autostop logic programmed into it, this may not happen to you but just in case, I do a 1, 1000, 2, 1000 before booting her back up now.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
