While I am a prospective HAH purchaser, I am intrigued by the mileage figures being put out for the new Highlander Hybrid 4wd -- 31 city/ 27 highway and 29 overall in a vehicle with over 260 horsepower. The overall figure is essentially the same as that for the HAH. [The 2wd is even better -- 33/27 and 30 mpg overall.] This is quite amazing given the extra weight and relatively poor aerodynamics of an SUV. The mileage is almost as good as that for the Escape hybrid (33/29) which has a four cylinder engine and not much more than half the horsepower.

The above makes me wonder whether the Toyota system is fundamentally better than that of Honda. I understand the technical differences and the fact that Toyota's produces better city mileage while Honda's does relatively better on the highway side. However, it seems that Toyota's system leads to a far greater improvement in overall mileage compared to the non-hybrid when one is talking about a V6 or V8 engine. The Highlander hybrid appears to perform like an SUV V8 but with almost a 100% improvement in FE. This compares to about 28% for the HAH compared to the normal Honda V6.

Given the preceeding, I am also wondering whether the figures I have for the Highlander are correct. My understanding is that the Escape system is similar to that used in both the Prius and the Highlander hybrid and it has not produced such a dramatic percentage increase in FE. Again, it seems incredible that a 260+ hp hybrid can achieve FE close to that of a much smaller and less powerful vehicle such as the Escape hybrid.

Can anyone explain this apparent anomoly?

Hi DavidB:

___In the EPA city/highway tests, the HSD equipped Toyota’s (Prius II) does a number but in the real world, the actuals don’t quite meet the EPA by a similar percentage above as that of the IMA equipped Honda Hybrid’s. I do not know how the HH and the RXh will perform (FE wise) in the real world on a percentage basis above/below the EPA so we will have to wait and see.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

It is really hard to say until the highlander has been tested. I trust this board more than anything else because the people here are real-life users from a wide variety of backgrounds.

It's entirely possible that it will simply be better. This technology improves fast, and the hybrid highlander won't be out for a while if I am correct.

I do think that being able to move at low speeds on electric only is an advantage. It's just too easy to come out of auto stop on the Honda hybrids and start burning precious gas. In my morning commute, there is a line of cars when one highway merges into another southbound. In this line and many others such as highway entrance ramps, it is hard or impossible to stay in autostop. You are moving pretty slow, so it seems like just the electric engine *could* move you just fine in these cases.

Honda is not a company to rest on its laurels though, so I'm sure they have some suprises in store. Let's see how the 2006 Civic Hybrid is.

If, however, the HCH ran the motor at an efficient rpm range during the creep, and sent the excess power to the battery, it wouldn't be so bad. Conversion losses are less than 10%. I don't know if this is the case; heck, I don't even know if the Prius works this way .. I *thought* it did, but an engineer fellow named J on the 2G-Prius group says otherwise.

I don't have time to address the rest, but essentially the same???? That's fourteen percent difference! The Highlander's numbers are great for an SUV, but not essentially the same. 14% is approximately $5 per tank more - $500 per year for me.

Now, is it worth that much more? Maybe. Depends on what you want. I obviously could have driven a Civic or Prius and gotten better FE, but the ride, power and amenities were worth the return.

Which technology is better? I think it's more appropriate to ask which one fits your driving conditions better. The Toyota seems better in town, while the Honda seems better on the highway. I'm a 70% highway driver. I drove the best Toyota hybrid available and compared it to the Honda. If I'm not mistaken, the Civic beats the Prius on the HWY, but overall the Prius beats the Civic (by 2 mpg).

But since the extra offered by the Accord offset the deminished mileage for me, that was my choice.

But one of the most important numbers is the % amount getting over EPA in this database. For Prius: 8%. For Civic: North of 30%.

All that said, if the Highlander had been availaible and I like it 14% more , I would have bought it.

'05 Accord Hybrid
'05 Odyssey EX-L
'03 1800 Goldwing
'98 Civic EX (16 yr. old daughter's)

Thanks for your comments. As you say, it is really a question of what's important to the individual driver. The Highlander will of course be much more expensive than the HAH even without amenities such as leather, etc. This would be a major factor even if the FE were identical to the HAH.

I've always assumed that both systems are designed to make the best use of the electric motor. Presumably, however, this would depend on factors such as the temperature, the charge in the batteries and the driving style. As you suggest, Toyota's system would likely be better in stop and go traffic.

There's seems to be little doubt that Toyota's system delivers better FE in stop & go, and it also seems the consensus that Honda's system provides more help during hwy. My decission would certainly be affected by my driving patterns.

However, Toyota had nothing to compete with the Accord (as far a appointments) at the time I bought. This will obviously change over time. Will it affect my next car? Don't know. I am a Honda guy, as is evident by my signature. There is nothing else I've found that feels like a Honda.

'05 Accord Hybrid
'05 Odyssey EX-L
'03 1800 Goldwing
'98 Civic EX (16 yr. old daughter's)

I think people with long commutes tend to buy hybrids more. Long commutes usually means a lot of highway miles. Driven almost exclusively on the highway, the HCH will get above EPA numbers for a driver who is light on the foot.

So I am not surprised that 30% see more than the EPA. The short commuters and "regular drivers" are seeing below the EPA numbers which lowers the average to about EPA.