The danger I see for shifting to neutral is accidentally shifting back into Reverse! Fortunatley, the HiHy has provided a simple mechanism for avoiding this: don't use the gear shift button. You can shift between Drive and Neutral (and Neutral to Drive) by simply pushing the gear stick up or down without having to push down on the gear shift button. However, the HiHy will not allow you to shift to Reverse without pressing down on the gear shift button.

So, when I'm doing this Pulse by Neutral, I keep my thumb away from that gear shift button and simply push the gear stick up/down...

hey han

Im not a big fan of altering the way the vehicle was meant to be driven to milk an extra mpg or 2. But this seems fairly safe when nobody is around at substantial speeds. I will give it a shot. Thx

cheers

Okay... results of this PnG by shifting to neutral method...

Tonight, I rolled up to my local gas station with less than a 1/4 tank left. The Energy Monitor read 27.7 mpg. So far, so good...

Filled up my tank... gobble, gobble... stops at 12.735 gallons.
Look at my trip mileage... 322.6 miles.

Did the math: 322.6/12.735 = 25.3 mpg.



Oh well. This was my largest discrepancy between manual and EM => 9.3%.

I did have my A/C on probably about 75-80% of the time, but it was typically on the lowest to 2nd lowest setting and set at a modest 76 F. This may explain some of this discrepancy. But... am I going to give up my A/C and slowly roast like a rotisserie chicken? Nah... there are limits to following this hobby (aka obsession).

What is more likely the explanation is that the last fill up was primarily due to differences in when the gas pump stopped. What is more accurate is if I average over my two last tanks: (369.2 + 322.6)/(13.304 + 12.735) = 26.6 mpg. These last two tanks is where I applied this png by neutral method.

If I average over the last 4 tanks prior to the last two that were done with png (by neutral), I get 26.1 mpg. All of these last 6 tanks represent similar driving styles over the same commute to work and similar weekend activity.

In addition, if I look at these 4 individual tanks, calculate their FE and the look at the standard deviation (i.e. the normal statistical fluctuations), I get 0.6 mpg.

That means the difference between the png average 26.6 and the "baseline" average of 26.1 = 0.5 mpg is pretty much within the statistical fluctuation I would expect calculating the FE tank to tank.

In other words, this png by glide may have netted me an improvement in FE, but the improvement is within the expected statistical fluctations from tank to tank.

In other words, this png by glide netted me bupkus.

In other words, png by neutral => forget it! For me, it represents a statistically negligible improvement to my current driving style. What's more important is how much you goose that accelerator and how fast you drive on the freeway...

My 2 cents...

I think what I'll do next is drain this tank down to empty then fill 'er up with 91 octane. I'll make a conscious effort to maintain the same driving style and patterns and see if I can determine a) any significant improvement in power over 89 octane and b) any significant changes in FE... I expect a) will be modest and b) will be bupkus. I'll post to this topic even though it's off the PnG topic for continuity...

hey han


thanks for doing the test. I was hesitant about dumping my car into neutral while operating it. It doesnt seem right with an automatic CVT. I am glad that it yielded very little, at least we dont feel 'compelled' to do this.

Lets just drive the car. I love the highlander, but am getting less concerned about the mileage as discussed by many other posts i have made. I have come to the conclusion that this generation of hybrids was NOT DESIGNED to actually save us anything at all.


The gov gives us a big tax credit to get us to purchase these still 99% gas cars, dont they ? These hibrids have an EV range of 2 miles and the actual gas savings is nothing to break the oil industry nor global warming issue.

These hybrids are like 5% EV 95% gas. Hooray for the oil industry.


Its just a new 'gimmic' to get us to part with our dollars. A warm fuzzy feeling to help the enviroment that does very little as its still a vastly gas car . Automaker already calculated what we could 'save' by EPA and jacked up the price to incorporate the technology.


I know that everyone knows this, so they are h--l bent on 'beating the system' by hypermiling to what? For what? They lost the 'savings war' when they drove off the lot. All their 'hypermiling' tech can also be applied to regular gas cars. Cars they can get used for a heck of a lot cheaper.

The movie on 'who killed the electic car' will show us quite frankly the diff between what the automakers CAN do, vs what they are WILLING and are ALLOWED to do. They have the tech to give us a full EV with a 200 mile range or more by now.

ALL major auto makers are mute on EVs now, and only underfunded fringe groups manufacture them using motely mechanical vehicles, vs while the real players with the best tech refuse to budge.

Any improvement in mileage on these hybrids to get the EPA and beyond using ever dubious methods to get ridiculous 'stats' does not save money. Buying the hybrid in the first place means buying a new car, which is always a dead loss.

The comparison always made is purchasing a new hybrid vs a new gas compare -which means the decision to throw money out the window on a new car isnt factored in. Or it was compared to a huge v8 boat of some kind getting 8mpg real world.

The biggest gaff i find is how many 'over miles' per year these guys drive to thus claim a bigger 'savings' vs overdriving a gas car. What is with that?

Its pretty tough to claim a bunch of 'savings' when you only drive 500 miles a month or so. It would take you about 20 years to make up the diff in the trumped hybrid cost.

My question is - how do you 'save money' when you are driving around 1200 -1500 or 2000 or more miles per month? Its INSANE. How are you helping the enviroment when you are polluting the atmosphere to the tune of all those miles per month? That is polluting MORE because you DRIVE more.

Has anyone ever thought of much more effective and cheaper ways such as:

carpooling

moving closer to your job

getting a job closer to your home?

buying a bike to go to the store and around short trips

wouldnt this be much more effective in helping the enviroment? Wouldnt you also save a BUNDLE in gas by not purchasing it -vs buying tons of gas then comparing it to a regular gas car?

helping the wallet and enviroment sollution = drive less

Want to talk money?

If the argument is you cant carpool , move closer etc, or find any way to stop putting a bunch of miles in , why not buy small older car instead, saving a PILE of depreciation and wear and tear on a new vehicle. The older car aint gonna depreciate much with the extra miles.

Those who think they are 'saving' a pile fast -and then gonna get trashed when they find out their car isnt worth much as it has a pile of miles on it to get those 'savings' vs a gas car equivillant.

No matter how you play it -the automakers had it all figured out long before they sold us the car.


Whats the deal with purchasing a new car anyways? What happens when i drive the thing off the lot?


Trading in a new car after one or 3 years is the highest loss in depreciation vs time owned. We are probably going to have to face this.

Selling a car with more than its share of miles on it is more difficult, as its closer to being out of warranty. The more miles left on the warranty, the easier it is to sell = the more you get for the vehicle.

I cannot BELIEVE all the miles i am hearing that people have already on this site. Do we live in our cars?

Driving the car for 10 years is the only way to go, but after 10 years, putting all those miles on it will start to cost huge in repairs and of course the almighty battery replacement cost. Cars tend to wear out when you drive them for some reason.

Most of the folks on here are tech junkies anyways. I will bet my bottom dollar 5% of us will still be driving the same car we have now 10 years from now.

Solution? Buy a new car, keep the miles down, and own it for 15 years or more. Maintain and baby it. The longer you can avoid a replacement car, the better.

If you have to drive a bunch of miles, you HAVE to take all of these things into consideration. Thus, purchase a small used car with reasonable mileage. Some else already took the dead loss on the depreciation.

lets also take that 30mpg car, and apply every single 'hypermile' action that has been produced on this site -save the nitrogen in the tires. Perhaps i should be able to 'hypermile' my way to 45-50 mpg or more in a regular gas car that cost a lousy 2000 bucks.


So, i am going to put my escort to the test. It cost 2000 dollars, and at this stage depreciates 200 bucks per year- if that. It has 78k miles on it.

It gets 30mpg running normally. I am going to drive a 10 gal tank , to get 500 miles out of using every single hypermiling suggestion -except the nitrogen tires.

over pressure on the tires, pulse and glide, neutral, wet towels and ice instead of AC. The whole nine yards.

I may even push my car down the street on occasion to make sure ive tried every single angle.

Lets see what happens.

Tom,

I think you may be missing the point of folks' desires to squeeze every last mile out of their hybrids, not to mention a bit judgemental. While it is apparent that your MO is to proselytize environmental consciousness and the vanity of hypermiling, I don't think folks' that do hypermile see it that way.

When it comes to hypermiling, saving money is really just the token "trophy" at the end of the exercise. From a dollars versus effort point of view, of course it makes no sense. I think hypermiling is analogous to other types of sports such as swimming or running. The vehicle becomes and extension of yourself and the passion becomes how far can I push the limits of this vehicle's capabilities? It's literally a self-competitive sport.

Early adopters of hybrid vehicles will naturally fall into the "techie" camp.... because it is ... new technology. I believe lots of folks, including myself find it fun to explore the technological limits of the HiHy whether it be FE or how far we can push it's off-road capabilities, to finding that backdoor "override" feature in the nav system. Will folks like myself tire of this activity? Perhaps. But, we might as well share our experiences along the way...

Getting hybrids more into the mainstream will take time and sites such as this one will help folks on the fence whether or not they want to take the hybrid plunge. I think one of the main concerns that non-hybrid owners have is whether or not all that "fancy electronics/batteries" will make the vehicle more unreliable and cost loads of money down the road. And yes, there is an overemphasis on FE savings, but whether we like it or not, that is another major contributing factor for many folks considering purchasing a hybrid vehicle.

Han,
I think your assessment of 'hypermilers' is spot-on for the most part. A little while ago I went through my gaslog and did the calculation of how much fuel and money has really been saved by my efforts, and the number worked out to something like $75 and ~25 gallons over four months. It's real money but it's also just the icing on the cake. That does mean that I drove a lot of miles, but those are miles that would have been driven anyway. Except for a few organized events, like Tour de Sol etc., it's not like we just wake up on a Saturday morning and say "I'm going to rack up 300 miles for no reason except to build my average." And those organized events do serve a purpose: to put the driving techniques on display in hopes that more people will be intrigued, and possibly even try them out.

Tom,
If you are really going to try driving your Escort for FE then by all means go for it. But, as I have suggested before, please start slow and implement the simplest techniques first. You can work the more involved stuff in gradually if you feel comfortable doing so, and that should save quite a bit of frustration. I think you, of all people, will agree that saving fuel doesn't mean much if you make yourself crazy in the process Let us know how it goes.

Tim

Han

you are absolutely correct. I am being too judgemental and raining on the hybrid parade. I myself am a loyal advocate of hybrids, because they are a step in the right direction. I am sorry if i am being this way, but i am a very honest person, and tell it the way i really see it. It doesnt mean i am right, nor is it personal to everyone elses views.

I myself came to this site to share in the joy of sticking it to the oil companies. To share ideas with fellow hybrid owners, and enjoy our vehicles that have lower emissions.

What i got instead shocked me considerably. There are several people who honestly believe they are 'saving money' . Thats fine. To each their own. However, i started to notice that most of the posts became about 'milking mpg' to show the EPA up. The ideas and technics they came up with to do this became repulsive and somewhat ego centric .

Running to report totals on the blog became way more important than anything else.

On top of all that, some border on insanity, and most if not all can be applied to a regular gas car -which shows the average american how to get better mileage in their gas cars -NOT to buy hybrid.

So i came to the logical conclusion that these hybrids are NOT the big advance everyone thinks they are, but its too late as we just shelled out 43k (out the door) for the highlander.

So, to keep positive, I conned myself into thinking i could get my wife to use the escort for long trips and thus keep the highlander down to 3k per year. We can then get top dollar for it when the new and improved EVs and plug in hybrids finally arrive a few years from now. This is when we can actually help the enviroment and save some real money.

These versions are really nickel and dime savings unless you use the above hypermiling driving -which again can be also applied to a gas car, so what was the point in shelling out all that money?

To top all that off, now i find out that the automakers hands are tied when it comes to actually helping us.

toyota put out a RAV 4 in 2002 that can go 75mph , and last almost 100 miles EV. That was 4 YEARS AGO. To say they cant get the same vehicle to go 150, 200, or even 300 miles now i believe is a total fiction. Of course they can.

They have 2 groups tugging at them. One is us consumers who put bread on their table. So they have to 'appease' us due to high energy costs and global warming. They have another group , big oil and other powerful entities ORDERING them not to upset their apple cart. This is obvious with the RAV 4 and the GM ev1.

Lets get realistic. When an automaker cant sell a car, what does it do? It offers SPECIALS and rebates and everything else to UNLOAD the things and cut their losses.

In this case however, they stole the cars back and got RID OF THEM quick, much like a late night ,law firm ,shredding session. They REFUSED to sell them at all -warranty or NO warranty. They just like LOSING money? Whatever.

So if we take a CLOSER look at what the gov is trying to push -ethanol - and these hybrids -which are 'hybrids' in the most miniscule sense. The battery capacity is very low - and it works very much like a typical gas powered generator. The energy, soon or later , comes from the ICE which delights the oil companies to no end. The little trade off in the regen braking is the real deal though.

In a round about way , the car is STILL overwhelmingly a gas car, packaged up differently .

So, i DOUBT highly I am going to see my plug in hybrid, or any REAL range on the EV in the thing, as it would PISS TOO MANY PEOPLE OFF . If all these folks are purchasing hybrids, they would also purchase an EV with a 200 mile range.

many of us here, especially those of us with more than one vehicle, would jump at an EV with an even 150 -200 mile range. Of course, Toyo and Honda would LOVE TO put the car out and make billions, but they AINT ALLOWED.

So, now i am left holding the bag on a 'hybrid' that i still think is fantastic -but is basically still a gas car. Holding my breath for something that will ACTUALLY help the enviroment to some major degree is already here, but AINT ALLOWED to be sold.

I am dissapointed, and saddened. However, I know that even this small advance is a step in the right direction. Just dont expect americans en masse to buy these 5%EV 95% gas versions.

I am also sorry if others dont agree and i am 'raining on their parade'. This is something i didnt WANT to know, nor WANT to believe, but im telling you that it is in basic terms , true.

However, i still think purchasing a hybrid is better than driving a gas car -even though it aint a money saver. Its the 'concept' of sacrificing to improve ourselves and help our cause that is still true within this blog.

cheers

Tim. Thankyou. Sound advise. I guess if you cant beat em -join em. I am going to do a one or two tank trial.

Back in college, we did all of these hypermilng things . This is cause we were so broke, we would put $5 bucks in the tank -not fill it up. So we were always on edge, trying to squeeze that 5 bucks worth, as we never knew where our next 5 bucks was gonna come from. So, i am used to it. Its been a while, but i am sure i can pick it back up.

We just never used to religiously track the 'extra' mpg . We just hoped we didnt run out of gas somewhere. Which i did anyway of a few occassions.

lol

Tom


I understand your frustration and agree with your opinion that the auto makers will not be allowed to sell true breakthrough energy efficient vehicles. Ethanol is the next wave only because the companies that refine and sell the farmer's corn based ethanol can make big bucks. Next will be hydrogen because, again, the people who package and sell the fuel can make lots of money. These people are NOT the electric companies.

The way I look at it, I would be driving either a pickup or a SUV regardless, since I need the carrying capacity. By using the HiHy I am getting significantly better MPG than ICE only equipped vehicles, and about what I would get with diesel (without the particulate pollution). That's being environmentally friendly now matter how you cut it. Not utopia, but what in this life is.

I look forward to the day when we can downsize our vehicles, and will probably tend towards whatever is considerably higher on the MPG food chain. Every little bit helps.

Thanks for wanting to make a difference.

"other needs"?? right. whatever.
.
If the HH HSD works like the prius, coming up to speed and then
slapping right into neutral will leave the engine *running*,
idling, rather than letting it shut down first. If you just
want to coast in N, you probably want to make sure you've pinched
off the flow of precious commodity beforehand...
.
_H*