Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell - Page 3 - GreenHybrid

martinjlm · #21 (**permalink**) 09-20-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msantos

As for Honda:

It is primarily a matter of company philosophy that would make that prospect unlikely.

Honda has one heck of an efficiency track record because its founder would have resisted upsizing until all technical options are exhausted. In fact I suspect, Soichiro Honda would do a double-back-flip in his grave if a CRV announcement like that was ever made to showcase its fuel cell technology !!!! Never would it happen.

I remember, when Honda introduced its first V6 in 1986, Soichiro was said to have only allowed that reluctantly in light of the rather unique north american luxury tastes. But up to that point, he still fought that with tooth and nail.
Continually, that "little" company has always chosen small platforms to showcase its prowess - that is a challenge to themselves. Hey, let us just look at the Honda fuel cell field example - the FCX.

I am really happy for GM though. Regardless of whether it is an SUV or not it is a commendable good step forward. I am excited.

Cheers;

MSantos

First of all, let me make this part perfectly clear......I think Honda is an excellent car company and an excellent corporate citizen. I will say, however, that your image of their approach to product and market is a bit idyllic. Honda is (in my opinion) the industry leader on engineering and manufacturing fuel efficient vehicles and efficient powertrains. But they also understand the market and have developed a number of sport utility models, including some significantly larger and less fuel efficient than the CRV. They are also now dipping their toe into the pickup truck market. There is no doubt that Honda is pursuing hydrogen fuel cell technology (though I'm not certain if it's because they see a future there or they are reacting to the ZEV Mandates). So it is not far fetched to believe they may consider a fuel cell SUV as a means of making the SUV relevant in a more fuel conscious environment.

Peace,

Martin

martinjlm · #22 (**permalink**) 09-20-2006, 07:19 PM

Just a humorous sidebar.....

When I typed

"If the headline were...

HONDA INTRODUCES CRV FUEL CELL IN 2007

or

TOYOTA INTRODUCES RAV4 FUEL CELL IN 2007

Most of the comments from this site would likely have been "Cool!! When can I get one?" No kvetching about "Gee it HAD to be an SUV, when are they gonna learn?" or "Hydrogen will never work because....[fill in the blank]". We'd be discussing how clever Honda / Toyota are and "why can't Ford or GM be so clever?"
"

I knew that there were a handful of people that I truly say this would not apply to and so far most of those folks have responded to that statement, confirming my thought that it does not apply to you.

Leahbeatle just flat out doesn't like SUVs, so Honda and Toyota would get no kudos there.

Bwilson4web just flat out ain't buyin' the whole hydrogen concept, no matter who's pushing it, so again, no kudos for Toyota or Honda if the roles were switched.

The big surprise (for me at least) is I though Delta Flyer would be arm-in-arm with leahbeatle on the SUV angle. Delta, you're softening up. Keep it up and I'm gonna haveta take some credit for it (j/k).

Peace,

Martin

And for what it's worth, I'd have any of you to my place for dinner and conversation anytime.

blinkard · #23 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinjlm

Most of the comments from this site would likely have been "Cool!! When can I get one?"

For the record, my first reaction, was "Wow, cool!"

Then I realized I had been thinking about the Sequel, not the Equinox, and was disappointed because Equinox is not what I'd call an attractive vehicle. So no, I wouldn't have wondered when I could get one.

But I do understand the logic in doing an SUV, given that one of the biggest problems with FCV's (as I understand it) is the need to carry huge tanks to have any type of decent range.

And I am elated that GM is getting FCV's on the road. Maybe then, once the difficulty of developing the car is done, people will start thinking about the impracticalities of hydrogen production and stop bringing up FCV's as a panacea.

msantos · #24 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinjlm

But they also understand the market and have developed a number of sport utility models, including some significantly larger and less fuel efficient than the CRV. They are also now dipping their toe into the pickup truck market. There is no doubt that Honda is pursuing hydrogen fuel cell technology (though I'm not certain if it's because they see a future there or they are reacting to the ZEV Mandates). So it is not far fetched to believe they may consider a fuel cell SUV as a means of making the SUV relevant in a more fuel conscious environment.

Yes, North American Honda is not really run by the same efficiency fundamentalists that is so pervasive in its own global corporate culture at home in Japan. They (NA Honda), have been given the latitude and market freedom to define vehicles and powertrain variations that "appeal" to the general north american public. That in itself, has turned me off many times. As a validation of your statement they have indeed created vehicles (For north america only) that simply violate the long standing principles that have driven the company for more than 50 years. Calling me "a bit idyllic" is actually an underserved gift as it would be better suited for the traditional Honda engineer who is expected to work by the principles of technical efficiency defined by Soichiro Honda.

Fact is Martin, and that is the point of my objection to your earlier statement, is that Honda will always try to choose a smaller, most efficient platform to showcase its latest technology.

NSX (VTEC...)
Prelude(AWS, SH...)
Insight (Hybrid...)
FCX (Fuel Cell...) just to name a recent few

That is a fundamental principle that the company cannot betray. So true in fact, that many north american customers at times considered the company arrogant as if "Honda always knows best". Examples?

... "Who needs a V6 in a family car? A four cylinder is good enough."
and
... "Who needs a V8 in a luxury car? A sophisticated V6 should be plenty." and so on.

That is why, I believe Honda would never introduce a new tehnology to the world in a form (or package) of an SUV (large or small). That would not be a challenge worthy of their corporate and global image.

Cheers;

MSantos

bwilson4web · #25 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkard

. . . And I am elated that GM is getting FCV's on the road. Maybe then, once the difficulty of developing the car is done, people will start thinking about the impracticalities of hydrogen production and stop bringing up FCV's as a panacea.

Reality check: GM has been running at least one FCV around Washington DC since GW announced his hydrogen program that he funded by killing the high-mileage vehicle program. There is at least one and possibly two hydrogen fuel stations in DC supporting this fleet of FCVs.

Bob Wilson

Chilly · #26 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinjlm

Leahbeatle just flat out doesn't like SUVs, so Honda and Toyota would get no kudos there.

Bwilson4web just flat out ain't buyin' the whole hydrogen concept, no matter who's pushing it, so again, no kudos for Toyota or Honda if the roles were switched.

The big surprise (for me at least) is I though Delta Flyer would be arm-in-arm with leahbeatle on the SUV angle. Delta, you're softening up. Keep it up and I'm gonna haveta take some credit for it (j/k).

Peace,

Martin

And for what it's worth, I'd have any of you to my place for dinner and conversation anytime.

I am hurt I didn't make it into you list.

martinjlm · #27 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly

I am hurt I didn't make it into you list.

You tend to see my pov more often than most. The three that I mentioned tend to disagree with me a lot, but with very logical and very consistent thought processes and often times strong data. Being trained as an engineer, I can appreciate logic and data, even when it is positioned to debate my pov. I think my larger point was, even though I expected each to have some reservation about the Equinox FCV, I did not expect them to take the emotional "since GM is doing it it must be crap" position. I was not dissappointed.

Oh, and I'd have you over for dinner, too.

Peace,

Martin

martinjlm · #28 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msantos

.... Calling me "a bit idyllic" is actually an underserved gift as it would be better suited for the traditional Honda engineer who is expected to work by the principles of technical efficiency defined by Soichiro Honda.

Just checkin'.....Wanna make certain you do not perceive my choice of the word "idyllic" as an insult. I actually meant it as quite the opposite. I'm implying that you see Honda exactly in the image that Honda would like to convey to the public, which is a very good image and one that they come closer than most to achieving. I actually have a lot of respect for Honda, both technically, and in the way they conduct business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msantos

Fact is Martin, and that is the point of my objection to your earlier statement, is that Honda will always try to choose a smaller, most efficient platform to showcase its latest technology.

NSX (VTEC...)
Prelude(AWS, SH...)
Insight (Hybrid...)
FCX (Fuel Cell...) just to name a recent few

Agreed. Very good points and examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msantos

That is a fundamental principle that the company cannot betray. So true in fact, that many north american customers at times considered the company arrogant as if "Honda always knows best". Examples?

... "Who needs a V6 in a family car? A four cylinder is good enough."
and
... "Who needs a V8 in a luxury car? A sophisticated V6 should be plenty." and so on.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that people see Honda as arrogant. That is undeserved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msantos

That is why, I believe Honda would never introduce a new tehnology to the world in a form (or package) of an SUV (large or small). That would not be a challenge worthy of their corporate and global image.

Cheers;

MSantos

Given what you explained about the differences between Honda corporate and Honda USA, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Peace,

Martin

Delta Flyer · #29 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 03:11 PM

I'm glad there is some common ground and less contention, however I don't think I've changed very much.

I just said the Sequal seems more like a minivan or CUV. That's an improvement over an SUV in it is lower, space-efficient, FWD instead of FWD. There have always been five-seaters that could carry a significant amount of luggage almost back to the start of the auto age - the Impalla to name just one. Getting back to a more efficient way of doing it is an encouraging sign.

martinjlm · #30 (**permalink**) 09-21-2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta Flyer

I'm glad there is some common ground and less contention, however I don't think I've changed very much.

...

Dang! Thought I had me a convert!

Peace,

Martin