Here's an interesting read for you: http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....LP%20Passenger

Visit my newly-acquired website, Volconvo Debate Forums!

Thanks for the link, Jason. I've made some interesting notes:

First, let's trash the hybrid cars:
That means Prius average is only 45 MPG,
HCH is 37
Insight is 47.
Makes me wonder why they didn't site the source of their "studies"?
Apparently they don't know of (Or ignore) some of our outrageously fantastic MPG's?
I wonder why they didn't make a more accurate comparison to the EX model
I guess their price gap would be smaller. They didn't mention the important safety/desired items missing from the LX?
13??? How about more than 25MPG better while maximizing?
Funny how they hint that Nimh batteries are toxic while they are not, and refers back to automakers "claims".
And here comes thier glowing diesel review.
Notice how they didn't mention that a comparable hybrid, such as the HCH is about $2,000 cheaper than their BASE Passat price? Then they compare a $ saving to a Passat AT vs a base Passat AT, not a MT Passat vs MT Civic or base Prius.
Pretty sneaky if you didn't catch that. The premium $ diesels pay over gasoline also isn't mentioned.
Guess they haven't researched VW problematic track record.
After all this trash regarding hybrids they have only 3 "possible" insignificant objections.
I wonder if this is a paid advertisement of sort?

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

Hot_Georgia

Your rebuttals are pretty much spot on regarding the price differentials, but I have to tell you: compared to some of the trash I read (eg motor trend), this article did not get my juices boiling.

And I pretty much agree with the author's bottom line: the simple act of getting a smallish car is 80% of the solution -- at least until hybrids enter the sub-compact realm.

To be fair to compare these technologies, they need to be driven the same way. simply saying that "most people don't do as well as the posted price" doesn't mean much-- if somoene drives with a lead foot, they will get lower FE on any car. However, it is true that the hybrids cars do have a narrower "range" at which they operate at peak fuel efficiency than a lot of other cars, I have never seen it explained that way in these reviews, merely that the EPA estimates are somehow dishonest (even though those at least are measured consistently from one car to another)

The fair way to test it would be to get three cars that are almost identical, one with a hybrid drivetrain, one with a diesel, one with a straight ICE. Drive all three exactly the same way, perhaps even perform multiple tests to emulate "speed-limit" driving, and another test for "lead foot" driving" and perhaps even one for "hypermiler" driving. Compare the results of all three cars for all three different driving habits.

What I would expect to find is that both the hybrid systems and the diesel would have about 20-25% higher MPG consistently, with the diesel faring slightly better than the hybrid for the lead foot driving with lots of accelerations, and the hybrid faring better for more conservative driving. I do believe though that the hybrid car designers should design the car FE so it doesn't plummet like a rock between 65 and 75 miles per hour, other cars aren't hit nearly as badly by this speed differential, and in California 75 is about the median speed on the freeways.

Honestly, what someone needs to do is this:

1) Bond a clean diesel engine with a hybrid assist engine
2) optimize the hybrid assist logic so that it has at least the potential for more human control, such as "hill climbing" modes, "freeway" modes and other settings which would cause the hybrid system to behave differently, optimized for the different situations. If I had more specific control over my assist like this, I'm confident I could improve my mileage by 5mpgs.
3) Also, the hybrid engine should be used for subtle changes in speed, or for maintaining speed with the engine at steady RPMs. I belive smoe have called this "reverse throttle priority," basically call on the hybrid engine for speed changes, and only when that isn't enough to get the job done, rev the engine faster. This way the hybrid pack can be used for saving gas even at steady crusing speeds, rather than just for accelerations, and stop-and-go traffic.

Clean diesel + hybrid = very Fuel Efficient car. Although, to have room for all that, this might not all fit in a compact car body, but imagine having a minivan or pickup with the same mileage as a stock civic hybrid!

"I do believe though that the hybrid car designers should design the car FE so it doesn't plummet like a rock between 65 and 75 miles per hour, other cars aren't hit nearly as badly by this speed differential, and in California 75 is about the median speed on the freeways."

How does one ignore the laws of physics? I think ALL vehicles are affected by speed. As your speed increases, so does the amount of energy required to push you thru the air-resistance, and I think it's on the order of a 4 magnitude increase...which means you use more fuel to go faster. There's an equation to say all this, but basically one cannot ignore that anything on the road is subject to these physical scientific laws. My 2 cents worth...

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.

PS How about a plug-in bio-diesel hybrid? I'd love to have more electric range at slower in-town speeds by plugging in at night, then a clean bio-diesel engine for longer out of town trips.

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.

"Studies show the average driver only gets 75 percent or so of the mileage figures that are on the sticker " So how many average driver drive hybrids? I know I'm not your average driver; they would be the people I pass everyday on the way to work. Being rated at 48 with the CVT and getting 45 that comes out to about 93% without even trying to maximize it. Who are these editors and how hard do they beat these test vehicles? And what’s wrong here “comparing a Civic Hybrid with a higher-priced, up level Civic EX … Thus, buyers of the Hybrid would need to travel 144,000 miles—about 9.5 years at the 15,000-mile-a-year national average rate—to recoup the approximately $2,000 price difference in these cars” if the EX was higher-priced why the 2000 price difference?

as far as price and features


LX
• Power windows, mirrors and door locks -- both have this
• Air conditioning with an air-filtration system -- both have this
• AM/FM/CD audio system -- both have this
• Cruise control -- both have this
• Body-colored door handles and side molding -- both have this
• Remote entry system -- both have this
• Center console with armrest and storage compartment -- both have this
• Map lights -- both have this

$16,660.00
Automatic Transmission with Front Side Airbags

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...an&Category=LX
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Hybrid
• 1.3-liter, 8-valve, 4-cylinder gasoline engine
• VTEC®-Controlled Cylinder-Idling system
• Dual-point sequential ignition (i-DSI)
• Nickel-metal hydride (Ni-MH) battery pack
• Anti-lock braking system (ABS) <----needs to be added to price of LX
• Dual-stage, dual-threshold front airbags (SRS)
• Front Side Airbags with Passenger-Side Occupant Position Detection System (OPDS)
• Lower Anchors and Tethers for Children (LATCH)
• Blue-lit instrument panel with electronic IMA™ display

$20,900.00
Continuously Variable Transmission

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EX
• Power moonroof with tilt feature <-----not offered in hybrid or LX
• Body-colored dual power mirrors
• Variable intermittent windshield wipers
• Anti-lock braking system (ABS) <-------------- hybrid feature
• 15-inch alloy wheels <----offered in EX and LX not hybrid

$18,560.00
Automatic Transmission with Front Side Airbags

15" wheels adds 716.00 to the cost of the Hybrid + cost of sunroof (if offered)

$2500 - 3200 price difference even between the Hybrid and EX which sounds about right.

Passat TDI was a poor comparison. The Jetta would have been a better comparison since the Passat is closer in size to the accord.

2005 jetta TDI = $22,460 with 6 speed auto and Heated front Leatherette Seat Trim and 6 disc changer($628,99 honda option) as standard options for the VW.

also combined 42 mpg 38/46 mpg (thinking thats manual) auto should be around 38 combined. Price difference between a Gasser and TDI is $995.00

Money is not evil. Good people do good things with money and bad people do bad things with money. Which will you be???

The ultimate Altima = 2.5L V6 twin turbo diesel(150hp/250tq) with 60 hp HEV and LARGE battery.


Great style & looks with power and great MPG

LakeDude, VERY well done. Thanks. Lest anybody get the wrong idea -- I think hybrids are great, because my bottom line is to decrease fossil-fuel use AND protect the environment. But in *some* scenarios, if we are to ignore the ramifications of increased fuel consumption (!?!!) it is clearly possible to drive a conventional SULEV ICE car for less money than a hybrid.

I will only add that if the non-hybrids can be bought as less than msrp, that should be considered as well.