The big news: Insight is up over a thousand percent!! They sold 60 Insights in November 2005 versus just 5 in November 2004. In other news, they already are beating last year's Civic Hybrid numbers even with limited availability. 2083 sold Nov 05 versus 1867 for Nov 04. Year to date is still roughly a wash due to the fact there were hardly any hybrids shipped for two months this year. 23336 for 05 verus 23473 by this time in 04. The Accord Hybrid continues to disapoint with just 837 sold this month bringing the total to 16,106 for the year. In spite of a special factory to dealer incentive on the HAH, there's no way they're hitting the sales target of 20,000 by the end of the year.

Overall it was a good month for Honda. Accord sales are down a little bit this month and for the year in general but the Civic is up 18% for the month and roughly equal over last year. Company wide, sales were 6.4% higher than last year and they're 6.2% ahead year to date as well. Full details at the link below:

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=454528

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It doesn't surprise me that the two "fuel efficacy" hybrids have sold well, but the "power" hybrid has not. Don't get me wrong: the HAH is an impressive piece of engineering. But how much assist can an IMA really provide to a high-end v6 engine that boasts 200+ HP? Sure, it accomlishes the idle-stop function, but I doubt it's frequently called upon to help push the car. There's also the $30k price tag.

If I were calling the shots (yeah -- Mr Cellular Phone Salesman -- sure) I would have offered a v4 HAH that would have more power than the HCH, but perhaps in the $25k range.

On the bright side, the current design shows that you CAN design a powerful hybrid and still get some modest FE gain.

(you mean an I4? there are no V4s) The merits of a 4cyl HAH have been preached to the ends of the Earth... wlcome to our little choir!

When Honda came out with the incentive for HAHs, it was immediatelty pointed out that it was Honda's own fault:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/s...l?page=1&pp=10

Much as I love my car, I would love it far more if it were a 4-banger. 6 cylinders for stop/start local driving sucks, and you are correct- IMA rarely helps much if at all in normal traffic.

Even as-is, with the V6, this could've been a rock star. IMO Honda presented this car incorrectly to the public, and hardly presented it at all to boot. NOBODY KNOWS IT EXISTS! And the few who do don't know what segment to compare it to- other hybrids? It gets killed. Other trimmed-up family sedans? YES! But Honda never pushed that.

A Honda ad for the HAH SHOULD go something like this:
"...exactly what you expect- an Accord in every way- the bedrock of the midsize family sedan segment. Oh, by the way, it gets better mpg than any other midsize family sedan you can buy, with a tax credit to boot."

They should never mention "performance" and "hybrid" in the same arena- it confuses people.

Not to mention the Fact that when the HAH 1st came out that (As-Always) there were Honda Dealers asking over MSRP for them. Like $2,000.00 More to be exact so that did not help sells out. One would think that at some point the Dealers would realize that if we act like we have some degree of (Professionalism) (Ethics) and sell the New Vehicles at a decent price to the Public and get them out there where more people can see them we would be alot better off than trying to Hit A Home Run on a few and lose the sell of a whole lot more because the Public is not Stupid and go elsewhere and purchase something else. Then Mr. Honda Dealer sits back and goes Gee we just can't sell any of these. (NO-JOKE-DUMMY) because when you could have you were trying to Gouge Your Customers. Amen

Terry

Hi AZCivic:

___Thanks for the sales info. I have been reading a bunch over at ToV today to catch up

___GoNavy, you made a good overall analysis of the AH in its present form. “If they” is the big question and now that it has been out for almost a year, Honda will have a tough time trying to increase sales by properly marketing it from here on out.

___On a similar note, preliminary Camry hybrid ICE specs were recently leaked and although they are using the I4 w/ HSD, they are still pushing HP (192 HP) and performance pizzaz instead of FE as I believe they should have targeted. The Prius II took off (imho) because of its 60/51 rating and nothing available here in the states could touch it. The Camry’s I4 when atkinsonized + HSD’s HP/torque will make it an 8 second sedan but it will never see south of 50 mpg except for those of us taking it to its limits It will make for an interesting year with the Fusion hybrid coming in 08. As long as Ford doesn’t pretend to use their poor excuse for an ICE (their ancient 3.0 V6), they may end up with the upper hand in this game with a higher overall city/highway FE rating then the AH (easy) and the Camry w/ HSD (a little tougher). An Atkinsonized 2.0e (100 HP) w/ an MG2 worth ~ 75 HP all on its own for 50/50 + should do it?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

all buzz to date is they will use the 2.3L. Haven't read anything about modding her to Atkinson for the Fusion, but that's the the same plant they dressed up for the FEH... I tend to read between lines with an optimistic bent.

I'd be very tempted to trade the HAH for the Fusion at some point...especially if a FFV (too much to hope for in the near term)

Hi GoNavy:

___The 2.3 is more then likely the ICE of choice as that is what some of the Engineers alluded too at Dearborn but they have the 2.0e ready to go as well. From the Focus specs as this is where the Ranger/Escape I4 based ICE comes from, it looks like a different head config is the only difference …

2.0e / 2.3

Bore/Stroke
3.44” x 3.27” / 3.44” x 3.70”

HP
130 / 151

FE w/ sticks
26/34 / 22/31 <-- This is Ford/Mazda’s Achilles heel in regards to I4’s as well as V6’s!

___Even after Atkinsonization, an ~ 10% less displacement gives you ~10% increase in FE. A lighter weight Ford Fusion with the Atkinsonized 2.0e and hybridized eCVT (vs. the Escape HEV) should easily outperform the std. Fusion w/ its I4 in the same. It is that ~ 10% increase in FE from the ICE which might make the difference between an also ran and top of the FE heap in the mid-sized sedan Hybrid category given the soon to be released Camry’s Atkinsonized 2.4 w/ HSD usage.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

Wow...Insight sales really that minor compared to the Civics and Accords?? I knew they were significantly smaller, but not that miniscule!

I personally would have gotten an Insight instead of a HCH if only they had a backseat. Oh and didn't have that funny-looking rear. ;-)

I wish they had made it slightly bigger so it might have back seats - maybe if there is a next generation....

The kam-shaped rear is to improve aerodynamics. The rear wheels are slightly closer together than the front wheels. This creates a weird and somewhat unsettling feeling riding on concrete streets that have repair work.

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