iboomalot -- I do not want to get in a diesel vs hybrid fight. I apologize for my nasty post. It was in response to the OP.

When I went car shopping, I briefly considered diesel, but have to admit that the possibility got dropped pretty quickly. My reasons are not all generalizeable to any car buyer, but fwiw:

Gas cost: Diesel is widely available in Albuquerque, but biodiesel blends are not. Regular Diesel costs the same as premium gas when I look (although I understand it tends to fluctuate, so this may not always be true).

Mileage: I looked at the Jetta wagon. EPA mpg is 32/43. My target mpg was 50, and only the Prius fit the bill.

Emissions: I have heard the argument that diesel PM are not as dangerous, but don't have enough information to make an informed decision. In any case, it is not only PM. Nox is 25X fold the Prius, HC is 7x .. EPA marks the diesel as a 1/10 -- the lowest possible. Hummers are allowed in CA, diesels are not. I will be delighted if diesel can be cleaned up to at least ULEV standards, since it is obviously not going away in much of the world, but I personally set SULEV as a minimum standard, and diesel is about 10x away from that.

Value: Hybrids are too new to really know. So far, they are doing well.

Reliability: For the 8 years Prius has been around, it has done superb. I'm not worried.

Smell: my wife says "french fries"
Torque: Truthfully, torque is probably the last thing before HP that interests me. But I did check out vw's website out of curiousity. Torque is 147@1900 rpm. Prius is 295@0-1200 rpm.
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Meta-One: I hope you are right. We will see what the future brings.

What? Perhaps I read that wrong. If not, my friends here in CA who drive diesels are in for a rude shock.
Diesels are exempt from smog inspections here, though - maybe that's what you meant.
Kristi

What he meant is that you cannot buy a new VW diesel in California because they do not pass the new emissions tests required for diesels for model year 2005 onward.

no problem

I would like to have bought a Prius but at the time it was too small and got about the same MPG as the jetta.

I would like to get a new prius but the dealerships are asking way too much for the cars. Heck one dealer wanted sticker + 5K and Iam not paying 30K for a Prius.

Heck I only paid 34K for my vette

Cali has been mucho strict, also diesels has suffered because of the sulfur in the fuel killing CATS thus deisel is very clean burning considering they have little to no after treatments like a gasser.

out of all the Hybrids the HCH and Prius II would be my choice for running around town if the price was right.

and you can really tell the torque advantage between my jetta and my wife's accord once you get over 40 miles per hour or in 5th gear passing

congrates on your purchase and no hybrids are not a joke.

Thank you, AZCivic. That is what I meant.

Diesels are now required to meet LEV II passenger car minimum requirements, which current models are not even close to, even using the low sulfur gas sold in Europe and CA. A new *ultra* low sulfur diesel is mandated for Europe in 2005, and 2008 in CA. Some think this derivative will allow filters and catalysts to be added that will allow the diesel engine to reach the bottom bar of LEV II. So, the optimistic viewpoint is that diesels *may* reach the *minimum* emmision requirement in 2008.

If Diesels were able to beat hybrids to a pulp in MPG, I could understand the argument that one strength offset the other weakness, but this is not the case. Hybrids are stronger than diesel in both of these metrics: 10 -20% more mpg, and an embarrassing for diesels up to 1000% less emissions.

So from my pov, hybrids are an easy choice over diesel. Heck, I can find conventional ICE vehicles I consider superior over diesel. Small Hondas and Toyotas come to mind. Small diesel cars can compete if mpg is given marked priority over emissions, but the US does not have them.

Lest you think I consider Prius to be the end all of cars, I'll readilly admit it is a compromise for me. I want a *small* hybrid, around the size of a Scion Xa. Ultra-SULEV (I made that up), 80 - 100 mpg, 12 - 15K cost. Hybrid tech is too expensive yet for this kind of car to be offered, and IMO the reason diesels and mini-compact conventional petrol cars still have a commercial life. I am hopeful that if the hybrid powertrain can drop below 1K additional cost, the small hybrid will become a reality. If it does, nothing available today will be able to compete.

On a related note, Honda recently announced that they will sell their Accord diesel in the US once we get low sulpher diesel and that they're confident it will pass emissions in all 50 states.

I am hopeful that if the hybrid powertrain can drop below 1K additional cost, the small hybrid will become a reality. If it does, nothing available today will be able to compete.


Right now with SUV sales slumping car manufactures are going to start putting stress on the Hybrids and for one main reason MONEY.

SUVs had a extreme markup example:

my 2003 excursion retail was 48K A-plan via Ford was like 38,500 which is just above cost on the vehicle. Nearly a 10K markup.

I don't know of any vehicles in the 20K range that have a 5K markup unless its a hybrid. Kinda interesting all hybrids are the TOP model with NAV and lots of markups.

IMO at this point pure marketing with an added benefit of better MPG and lower emissions but with a higher cost and more profit to the manufactures.

Bottom line is always the most important thing and hybrids are no different than SUVs , at this point in the eyes of the manufactures.

I would venture to guess that the main reason Hybrids aren't selling as well as their otherwise identical counterparts is people don't want to fuss with plugging it in at night or at the office or face a possibly dead car.

They don't want to run out of battery with no recharge and be stuck on the freeway.

I've had my car for 16 months now and it's still the #1 question I get today.

Referring to your post #10:
My numbers are not inflated computer figures. Miles driven/gallons used for all my vehicles.

Efficient drivers do it better.
1003 miles a tank personal record. 74MPG calculated. HCH1 CVT

real MPG vs inflated computer #s

I was at a dealership and they were quoting EPA #s and also saying they have seen 60+ mpg in a prius "just look at the computer trip mpg"

If toyota is still using that bladder / gas tank which varies in size on every fill up = not accurate period.

never mentioned anyone's name and if you are getting 57.7 you are a good hypermiler unlike the general public. good job

Actualy measuring fuel put in the tank and dividing by miles traveled will give you an acurate number over multiple tanks. I doesn't mater if the tank size changes. The total fuel used and the number of miles traveled are all that realy matter.

My hydroponics experiment

You ever notice how hard it is to lip read cartoon characters?
"Crazy is what the sane call Delta Flyer"