"More and more alternative to the traditional gasoline engine are arriving almost daily. But, for consumers, more options don't make the choice any easier. Hybrid, flex-fuel, diesel - which is best on the wallet, and on the environment?"

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/autoworld.shtml

They compared a Bluetec Benz to its equivalent, Hybrid Civic to its equivalent, and the Hybrid Tahoe with its equivalent (running both normal gas and E85). I thought it was quite even handed (I watched the show which seems to have more information than the article). Also they tried to match the equivalent trim levels (on the Civic they used the EX trim to compare with the hybrid, and added equipment to the FFV Tahoe to match the hybrid.)

Interestingly they got 48mpg combined for the Civic hybrid so they weren't lead footing all the cars around. Also they article gives cost per mile calculations and I found the below interesting for the Tahoe:

"In terms of fuel-cost-per-mile, the Hybrid leads with a figure of 18.3 cents, followed by the gasoline FFV at 22.9 cents and trailed by the E85 at 27.7 cents per mile."

Excellent find!

When we lived in the DC area, Motorweek was a favorite. I don't know why we haven't been following it since we moved to Alabama but now I will.

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

So why do we still want E85? It's not efficient and contributes to higher food costs. Seems like a no-brainer.

2008 Galaxy Gray Honda Civic Hybrid

An optimum mix appears to be E30 but this is work being done by a GreenHybrid member. We're not necessarily 'mainstream.'

As for "contributes to higher food cost," from what little I know of the subject, this is a bogus claim. Apparently unable to lie enough about hybrids any longer, the skeptics have decided to blame ethanol. The cost of food is a function of the cost of fuel needed to: (1) operate farm machinery, (2) make fertilizer, and (3) process into food we purchase. The tail is not wagging the dog.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Excellent little article. Thanks, John!

Steve

STOP terrorism - Drive a HYBRID

Vehicles:
350 miles a week ------------ 2006 HCH II, Magnetic Pearl, w/NAVI (born on May 25, 2006)
350 miles a month ---------- 2003 Mazda Tribute ES-V6
350 miles a year (for now) - 1986 Mercedes 560SL

Mike, in spite of the best efforts by the oil companies to make you believe e85 is causing food to rise, take a look at the price of rice.....greed (futures trading) is causing the price of food to rise, along with cost of production, delivery and demand. It is far too complicated a formula to point your finger at any one thing and say see, told ya.

That said, I am using e-85 in my dual fuel certified truck, It reduces the mileage by 3 mpg from 15 to 12 but for the most part it was offset by the reduced price as the only station in Spokane selling it was selling it at 2.39 a gallon.

I drive the truck very little, maybe 20 miles a week at very most, therefore a tank lasts me quite a while so I have not been keeping close tabs on the e-85 price here. I drove by that one station yesterday and found they had raised the e-85 to 3.39 a gallon vs 3.58 for regular unleaded. At that price, I am concerned about buying e-85 vs gas because there is no real payback for me as it saves me $2.85 a tank but costs me 45 miles a tank or about 3 gallons or $7.89 more.

Yes I have to weigh the cleaner vs. less clean, the truck runs better on e-85 (higher octaine=smoother) and less oil....and given the very low miles I put on the truck, it still makes sense to use the e-85, but I am buying a tank of gas every 3 months not every 3 days or a week, given those circumstances, I would probably go with gas but....that said, that is why I bought a hybrid in the first place, so, I could go 3 weeks without buying any gas cause, like I said, I don't drive my truck unless I really need to and then 1X per week to work to keep parts moving.

It also does not make sense to get rid of the truck, I do use it for yardwork, bark, picking up stuff and such, it is paid for and therefore costs me very little as opposed to selling it to someone who would use it daily and cause more polution.

BTW, since I have strayed so far, I forgot to say that was a great article, good to see the results when people go in without an agenda.

Here are my thoughts on why E85 is still relevant and will become even more relevant.

1. Energy Dependance / Petroleum Displacement: Since E85 only contains 15% petroleum product, it can be a very valuable product in the event of an oil shock resulting from war (yeah, like that could happen) or natural disaster
2. Low Option Cost: For most vehicles that FFV capable in the US & Canada, E85 capability is either a $0 option or is embedded based on model / engine choice. No cost to the consumer for providing the capability, whether they use the fuel or not.
3. Consumer Choice: As demonstrated by Bob's Metallic Pearl, the consumer can do what makes the most economic sense for them. If you buy a diesel powered vehicle, you must get diesel fuel no matter what the price of diesel fuel is. With E85, if the price allows for making up the mpg deficit, then go with E85. If not, go with E10 or whatever is offered in your locale. In Michigan, diesel prices have shot through the roof.
4. Food or Fuel debate is overstated: As has already been pointed out, the rise in fuel prices can be traced back to more than just corn used to make ethanol. Rice and other grains are also seeing significant price hikes. Some reports place the elevatio in these prices to the cost of transportation (ie - rising fuel costs). E85 is an easy target because it is made from corn product, even though in most cases it is NOT the same types of corn used as table food. The fair part of the argument is that in some cases, farmers have made the choice to plant non-food corn on acreage that previously contained food corn. This is offset by some degree to the fact that corn yields (usable tons of corn/acre planted) have been steadily rising for years, so planting less acreage does not necessarily equate to producing less food corn.
5. Transition of the Ethanol production industry: Corn (sugar cane in Brazil) is used as a feedstock for ethanol because that's what is tried and true with established production processes. With the growing population of E85 vehicles on the road, investors are now pumping money into companies that have demonstrated technology and processes for turning non-food products into ethanol. Soon ethanol will be made from switchgrass, willow, wood by-products, even old tires and rubbish. This will become the foundation of E85 product supply. GM has invested in Coskata and another company (name escapes me) that have demonstrated the technologies and the processes.

Hope that helps.

Peace,

Martin

btw - Mikesan, next time I'm in Cali, can I borrow your Shelby?

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I thought 35mpg for the gas car was pretty good too. I wish the online version had more of the emissions data that they flashed briefly on the show. I would like to compare the numbers a bit more.

Overall, I think that is one of the best "articles" on alternative powered cars I've seen--kudos to Motorweek for their fairness, and their attempt to level the playing field between the cars. Too bad they didn't do a FEH vs. FE too...

Commuter car, grocery getter, and summer road tripper--average 10k miles per year.


Winter road trips and ski trips, bad weather commuter and my wife's "daily" driver--expected average 4k miles per year.

Mi brother in law, that holds an Ag degree, tells me that there are over 200 known corn varieties. Yes, my friends, over 200.
The corn for tortillas is not the same for corn-on-the-cob, not the same for livestock feed, not the same for popcorn, not the one used to brew Corona, and certainly not the same optimized for ethanol.

However, for future's traders, corn is only the next hot commodity. And ethanol is the excuse to create the required speculative frenzy to create the next bubble.

The unfortunate end result is that corn, which is a staple food for most of South America and Africa, is caught up in that speculation and thus its price is increasing.
It shouldn't be...its all pure speculation.

The U.S. has reached a point “where the priorities of Congress could become so distorted by politics” that it would turn its back on the next great global industry, clean power — Rhone Resch

Umm sure, as long as you don't put any E85 in it!! 91 only. It gets over 25 on the highway. Does that make it 'green'? Probably not!

2008 Galaxy Gray Honda Civic Hybrid