You should consider some anger management classes...


sheesh

Didn't know that Mr. helper wanted to get involved...

Thanks for the latest news. I'm always interested in learning more about the future PHEVs and hybrids. Toyota's generation 3 Prius will achieve higher fuel efficiency via 1. weight reduction 2. more powerful electric motor 3. increased battery capacity 4. improved regenerative braking 5. improved atkinson engine cycle 6. improved aerodynamics 7. improved hybrid system control For the next two years, the current battery chemistry NiMH will be utilized. Then non-plug in lithium ion batteries will be introduced in 2010? 2011? While the non-plug in lithium ion batteries are being introduced, Toyota will "fleet" test plug-in NiMH batteries in limited numbers. These plug-in NiMH batteries will provide EV range of seven miles and top speed of 62mph. If things work out, Toyota may introduce plug in lithium ion batteries the next year (2011? 2012?) that may provide electric range of 20 miles.

There is no statement (from Toyota) on what the plug in version would cost. The authors of this article "guessed" at $30,000 without providing any data on how they arrived at this figure. The Volt has been estimated to be as high as $48,000 purchase price.

Note: there is no mention of close end leasing in this article for either Toyota or GM.

I found the article to be helpful in providing details and facts on what the future may look like.

2005 AWD Escape Hybrid
Best tank trip MPG 39.02 (scangauge II) for 402 miles on I-70, 10.3 gallons used over mostly flat terrain.

Best tank trip MPG 34.6 for E30 for 271 miles along I-80 in Indiana and Ohio.

I agree; sticking with facts is important--GM actually sold 577 hybrids last month, not less than 100 (according to GM's Mark LaNeve). Yep, still pretty abysmal, but just want to keep things accurate.

Let's also consider that while GM may not be selling very many hybrids, they aren't making very many either. It's not as if there is a pile of unsold hybrids sitting on GM's lots. The main battery supplier for the BAS vehicles, Cobasys, is in financial turmoil right now and is having trouble supplying the batteries for GM. They also had a bout of problematic batteries that needed to be replaced due to a faulty design, so they had to catch up on replacements first before supplying new units to the manufacturer. I do know, for example, that there is one Saturn VUE Green Line for sale in the entire Chicagoland area, and it's probably gone by now. My local dealer hasn't seen one in several months.

I do agree, though, that the massive ad campaigns seem to greatly exaggerate the amount of hybrids GM actually intends to produce (and sell). In this case, it sure seems image based...

now you know.

And I will be even more happy to provide actual F-A-C-T-S since I am a current and very active GM employee DIRECTLY involved in the product planning for vehicles and powertrain systems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indyr4400 -GM is getting kickbacks from big Oil..

You should actually be supportive of the fact that oil companies see the handwriting on the wall wrt batteries. Batteries serve two purposes in a hybrid vehicle.....energy storage and power delivery. In the energy storage area, batteries are akin to fuel tanks that store gasoline. If you look at the gasoline companies like Chevron/Texaco as providers of energy storage, then you might be able to see that they are hedging their bets in the event that batteries do eventually displace gasoline tanks on a large scale as energy storage units.

The JV that you speak of was joined to develop a particular type and chemistry of battery. Advances in battery technology have led GM to move away from that type of battery system to more advanced systems. The JV was no longer necessary and interest in it sold. What does it matter who we sold it to?

I could easily refute this statement, but I'd probably lose my job for disclosing confidential information. Suffice it to say that I am on a first name basis with the man who led the EV-1 program and developed the Precept concept vehicle. Suffice it to say that a lot of the people working on hybrids and Chevy Volt have EV-1 on their resumes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indyr4400 -GM had the technology for the EV1 then..

You almost got this one right. GM did engineer the EV-1, and as I stated earlier, I am very closely connected to many people who were involved. GM did develop the EV-1 as a result of the original California ZEV Mandate, but not as a last ditch effort. It was originally part of a cooperation with California to study what it would take to achieve the mandate. California's part in all this was to develop an infrastructure to support the EV-1s and other potential electric vehicles to be marketed in California. California never came through on their commitment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indyr4400 the Volt, if it comes to the market, it only available by lease..

The lease you may be speaking of is a CONSIDERATION of having a separate lease agreement for the battery, to protect the customer from high cost / potential obsolescence. Do you have any documented proof or statement from a GM spokesperson to substantiate the O-P-I-N-I-O-N stated above in BLUE text? Keep in mind, I am VERY familiar with GM product plans. Seeing as how that's what I get paid to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indyr4400 -if the Volt is successful and there is a need, GM will take it back from you and crush it, just like the EV1..

Again, O-P-I-N-I-O-N or do you have facts or a statement to back this up? Nevermind.....I know FOR A FACT that you don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indyr4400 Let me just point out one fact Billy Boy – let’s not forget taxes which comprise a good bulk of the fuel price consisting of local, state and federal taxes. All GM has to do is lease ONE vehicle to fulfill all of their requirements to delivery a product to the public. I do not know if you have ever seen one but who know drives an EV1? We had two good friends that had EV1s (1999 and a 2000 model) which GM abruptly taken away from them without explanation.

The whole argument of "GM swooping in and taking EV-1s away with no warning" is a questionable premise at best. The EV-1 program was designed as a closed end lease from day 1 for a number of reasons.

1. The battery technology in the EV-1 is primitive compared to where it is today. It was decided early on that the vehicles would need to be brought back after lease to spare the customer the then unknown cost of having to deal with battery replacement and/or retrofitting to a new type of battery at the end of the original battery life. Customers knew on the day that they signed the lease that they were going to have to give the vehicle back. There are two programs currently inplay that are operating similarly. In California, you can L-E-A-S-E a Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Vehicle. Guess what happens at the end of the lease? GM is also executing a fuel cell demo fleet in California, New York, Florida, and Washington DC. In this case, the vehicles are not being leased, they're being loaned. Why? Because at the end of the program we want them back. Why? Because there is no infrastructure to support these vehicles once the program is completed. Sorta like the EV-1, because.......
2. There was no guarantee that California would follow through on its committment to deploy the infra-structure to provide away-from-home recharging capability. The EV-1 had range up to about 200 miles, depending on driver habits, but if you were stuck away from home, away from your specialized induction charger, you were screwed. The point of the Volt is that you can drive for 40 miles (covers daily commute for 78% of US population) without ever turning on the gas engine. If you do run low on charge, the gas engine turns on ONLY TO CHARGE THE BATTERY. This extends the range of the vehicle to 640 miles, compared to 200 for the EV-1
3. It was unknown whether or not electric vehicles would be accepted outside of California, Nevada, Arizona, and eventually New York where the EV-1 fleet was deployed. This would mean that the vehicle would be of limited or no value in the other 46 states. Now that it is clear that there is a demand for electric vehicles AND the ability to provide the range extending features, that concern has gone away, there is no concern about 50 state viability.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

And you K-N-O-W this to be true because...........?????

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

Thanks Martin for the updated information. We know your gang can do it.

2005 AWD Escape Hybrid
Best tank trip MPG 39.02 (scangauge II) for 402 miles on I-70, 10.3 gallons used over mostly flat terrain.

Best tank trip MPG 34.6 for E30 for 271 miles along I-80 in Indiana and Ohio.

Since you are GM employee-martinjlm, you should be ashamed in your effort to bring hybrids to market. Just how many cars does GM have on the market getting 50mpg or more? And, how many vehicles does GM have on the market getting less than 15mpg? Oh and not sure if you know the other fact- it has recently been announced Toyota now is number one in vehicles sales pushing GM from that spot. Mr. Satisified GM employee, the bottom line is you guys are too late to market if and when the Volt does hit the market. Toyota will have the plug in hybrid to market in 2010 and it will be affordable. And SHAME ON GM - the Chevo Aveo getting 25mpg, a small compact car. That gets just a much as an Infiniti G35 with 280 horsepower. I guess GM's definition of gas economy is certainly different that Toyota's definition of economy cars. GM will ultimately pay the price for NOT listening to actual customer needs given car is almost $4 per gallon.

[quote=valerieannt;169583] Just how many cars does GM have on the market getting 50mpg or more? quote]

Can you point out any new vehicle sold in this country (USA) that has a 2008 EPA rating of 50mpg or better?

2005 AWD Escape Hybrid
Best tank trip MPG 39.02 (scangauge II) for 402 miles on I-70, 10.3 gallons used over mostly flat terrain.

Best tank trip MPG 34.6 for E30 for 271 miles along I-80 in Indiana and Ohio.