http://www.cleanmpg.com/

"Not listed below is Toyota's Prius. In our care, Prius averaged a svelte 45.2 mpg - 19% below EPA combined.

Tom Appel - Consumer Guide - August 23, 2006


2007 Jetta TDI - best FE of all the compacts listed. . . ."

Then when reading the article, you find the Jetta was in a table at "40.1 mpg." The Prius got "45.2 mpg" yet the Jetta is listed as "best FE of all compacts."

Now I understand there are anti-hybrid folks who go out of their way to bend reality. I also understand individuals may think the Prius has taken unearned honors. In life, we don't always get what we want. But in engineering and Math 101:

Prius 45.2 MPG is much better than Jetta 40.1 MPG

Then to make a patently false claim that is exposed in the text of the article . . . did the author of "2007 Jetta TDI - best FE of all the compacts listed" think the readers are too dumb to read the article?

So the only question in my mind is "Consumer Guide" the anti-Prius source?

I sent a note to their editors and we'll see. One thing for sure, it is unlikly I'll spend much time with folks who use 'funny math' like this. Real engineering has to be based on measurements, facts and data, not linquistic double-speak.

Bob Wilson

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:

I don't know where cleanmpg comes in to this except maybe the article was posted in our news section. But everyone knows a prius in the right hands is capable of about 112 mpg under conditions that are favorable to it.

Infact http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793 kind of proves it. Posts like this one is great to let peole know not to believe everything they read in the press.

Unfortunatly you get people that buy a new Prius and decide to just drive it normaly under the poor conditions and complaine about the mileage. And then
writes an article and everyone thinks its typical.

Thanks for bringing that article over here so people can see what the media says versus what people are actualy getting.

And if you want to see some good numbers of people that push them hard to get every last drop out of them check out the top of the list in the compare section here, or the few prius' at http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=garage

My hydroponics experiment
My carputer

You ever notice how hard it is to lip read cartoon characters?

Hi Tom,

Actually the home page for CleanMPG.com is where I found it.

I was looking for the average MPG from the recent Insight test and started from the home page. Noticing the curious caption and text, I clicked on the article and did not find the photo and caption. The only place the photo and "Jetta" caption showed up was on the CleanMPG.com home page.

So I though, well maybe the eight postings in the journal had some comment about the article pointing out the obvious flaw. None of them said a thing about it. When I clicked to add my observation, I was solicited for a registration . . . and I stopped.

Now I can easily believe that the article posted on the CleanMPG.com home page was a quick cut-and-paste. I can believe that folks didn't critically read the article and looking at the Jetta photo and caption totally miss the message:

Jetta is the best, not a Prius that had better performance.

Everything you say about CleanMPG.com and Prius mileage may be totally true, wonderful and factual . . . after we get beyond the Jetta photo caption "2007 Jetta TDI - best FE of all the compacts listed. . . ."

Bob Wilson

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:

"VW isn't offering diesel cars for 2007."

CleanMPG.com isn't just about hybrids, they are about getting the best out of any car. The link to the article makes sense, it suggests which cars get inherently good mileage. Why the article doesn't have the Prius in the charts doesn't make sense (atleast they mention it) but that is the fault of the article rather than CleanMPG.

LOL! I'd heard that too but will probably drop by my local VW dealer to ask.

Did you notice the link to the article does not have:

". . .

2007 Jettta TDI - best FE of all the compacts listed."

This image and caption is found on the CleanMPG.com and none of the associated links from that homepage.

I have no problem with the goals of CleanMPG.com and posting articles of dubvious value like the GM "need more hummers." What I do have a problem with is the homepage introduction to a flawed article that uses a lot of screen-estate to announce, without refutation:

"2007 Jetta TDI - best FE of all the compacts listed."

Then I went back and double-checked the log of comments and noticed the first post of the original article had special emphasis on some unique numbers in the tables and I remembered the homepage text "19% below EPA combined." 'D*mn me with faint praise' comes to mind with the echos of past complaints . . . thankfully no longer heard here.

The article has its problems and I've already sent their editors a note. What I didn't expect to find was:

1) CleanMPG.com - posts the photo of what may be a "non-existant in the US market" car
2) caption "2007 Jetta TDI - best FE of all the compacts listed."
3) only one Prius owner made reference to getting better than EPA mileage

The reason we are discussing problems with this article is CleanMPG.com hasn't and so far, the supporters seem oblivious to the problem. Take these points back to CleanMPG.com or don't. It isn't my problem but near as I can tell:

1) no one at CleanMPG.com has pointed out VW is not selling the Jetta TDI in 2007
2) one comment about the Prius mileage and not because of the cover slogan

Wake up and smell the deisel. The sad thing is I still don't know the average mph of the Insight endurance test.

Bob Wilson

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:

bwilson4web,

The article you refer to could have been checked out more. CleanMPG makes an effort to avoid articles with heavy bias. I'm pretty sure nothing was intended - the article was posted a bit fast.

That article you mentioned at CleanMPG is also here at GH - did you see it? > http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/g...ers.10207.html

The position of CleanMPG (and my personal opinion) is to embrace hybrids, diesels, other alternative fuel, and any fuel-efficient vehicle.

Every site starts out small. There will be oversights simply because there are not enough members knowledgable about all the vehicles. We seek diversity to remedy that.

I would ask to use a larger sampling before making a conclusion.

I have but don't care to share those findings.

The problems are not found just with the article, which I have already addressed with the editors.

Bob Wilson

After April 3, use e-mail to contact me:

bwilson4web does have a point. My understanding is that there are no diesel passenger cars being produced in 2007 because they can't meet emissions.

bwilson, obviously you don't like the site. It's okay. The site isn't a ra-ra site for any particular vehicle. The point is getting the most mileage out of any vehicle. Sometimes articles posted aren't the best. Since wayne has been gone a few weeks others have tried to pitch in and offer articles and may not be as focused as wayne is when he tries to pick them.

In case anyone is wondering a lot of us on cleanmpg own hybrids and love them and try to push them as far as they can be pushed. Look at the top of the mileage charts in the compare section and you will see that a few of those top names are over at cleanmpg trying to push hybrids as far as they can go. Also, like many of you lots of us also have non hybrid vehicles that we try to push as well.

So, in the case of cleanmpg it's not about the type of vehicle but the type of driver. Articles like the jetta one aren't there to say the jetta is better than the prius, but rather for those that don't want a prius there is (potentaly (but not in 2007)) an alternative.

The idea is get people in the most efficient car they can afford and get them to get the most out of it.

My hydroponics experiment
My carputer

You ever notice how hard it is to lip read cartoon characters?

Why not? I just spent a couple hours figureing out the math and posted it myself. Something you could have done yourself since I used the posted data over at Clean......

I've been "doing the math", here are the results so far:

Day1
11 hours 20 min (680 min)
258.9 miles
22.84 mph/D1

Day2
14 hours 30 min (870 min)
284.6 miles
19.63 mph/D2

Day3
13 hours 24 min (804 min)
239.9 miles
17.90 mph/D3

Day4
14 hours 19 min (859 min)
254.2 miles
17.76 mph/D4

Day5
12 hours (720 min)
205.9 miles
17.16 mph/D5

Day6
16 hours 29 min (989 min)
287.6 miles
17.45 mph



More to come.......


Day7
22 hours 8 min (1328 min)
380.2 miles
17.18 mph

Day8
12 hours 38 min (759 min)
208.4 miles
16.47 mph

Day9
8 hours 18 min (498 min)
134.5 miles
16.2 mph


Totals:

2254.4 miles
125 hours 07 minutes (7507 minutes)
18.02 mph