To EV or not to EV that is the question - GreenHybrid

PriusGuy04 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-11-2006, 05:12 AM

Greetings~

I figured we would move this topic out of what Honda should hybrid next

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Electric Vehicle Performance
& Battery Cost Comparison
Educating the public one
step at a time....

The reader will find performance comparisons between electric vehicles made by Ford, Chrysler, General Motors, Honda, Toyota and Electric Fuel Propulsion Corporation (EFP) [which has licensed its technology to Electric Auto Corporation (EAC) in 1994].
These comparisons are based on tests by the U.S. Department of Energy and General Motors.

In 1969, the best performing electric vehicle on the road was the MARS II Electric Car produced by EFP, equipped with Lead Cobalt Batteries, which had a maximum driving range of 146.8 miles on a charge.
In 1997, the best performing electric vehicle on the road was the EV-1 Electric Car produced by General Motors, equipped with Lead Acid Batteries, which had a maximum driving range of 90.5 miles on a charge (EFP and EAC were not producing electric vehicles at that time).

It should be noted that Honda and Toyota used Nickel Metal Hydride Batteries (NiMH) which cost was estimated at $450 per kilowatt hour (Note 1) as compared to $67 per kilowatt hour for the Lead Cobalt Battery (6.7 times as much). Nickel is ten to fifteen times as costly as lead.

Ford, Chrysler and General Motors are now beginning to install NiMH Batteries in the vehicles (which, until recently, have been equipped with Lead Acid Batteries). This will increase the range of those vehicles, but at a high cost penalty due to the high cost of the NiMH batteries. Those companies will absorb the loss as part of their commitment to the State of California to bring a certain number of EV's to the market before Year 2003.

The new constant speed ranges (under the U. S. Department of Energy Test Program in Phoenix, Arizona) for EV's made by Ford, Chrysler and General Motors, with estimated cost of Nickel Metal Hydride Batteries, are as follows: (assuming 4 miles per kilowatt hour)

Ford Ranger -- 50 miles with NiMH Batteries:(28.75 kWh x $450/kWh = $12,937)

Chrysler EPIC -- 90 miles with NiMH Batteries:(22.5 kWh x $450/kWh = $10,125)

GM S-10 -- 130.6 miles with NiMH Batteries:(32.65 kWh x $450/kWh = $14,692)

THE COST OF LEAD COBALT BATTERIES FOR THE ABOVE VEHICLES

$1,962 for Ranger, $1,508 for EPIC, $2,188 for S-10.

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EV Pros & Cons
Like anything in life, things can have both its advantages as well as its disadvantages.

The silence of an EV
The first thing that a person will notice as soon as they drive an EV for the very first time is that it is considerately quiet. You can roll up the windows and the noise of everyday life seems to disappear, allowing you to enhance your listening pleasure for music, conversations on your car phone, or just giving you the peace to think freely while driving. The drawback to this is that a lot of drivers depend upon noise in order to control their driving. You know that if you hear the acceleration of a motor rapidly coming towards you, you can react in time to move away. This also applies to pedestrians and can help to keep them out of danger. Engineers and manufacturers are speculating when and whether they should install some kind of device that will produce a noise to warn others when an EV is approaching.

The features of an EV
Like gasoline powered vehicles, most EVs come with an AM/FM stereo and cassette deck, air conditioning (A/C), anti-lock brakes, dual side air bags, and options like tinted windows, cup holders, CD players, car alarms, etc. One disadvantage to an EV however, is that the air conditioning can decrease the vehicle's range as much as 20%. The other electronic devices, however, usually constitute no major change in the vehicle's range.

The performance of an EV
EVs drive very similarly to that of gasoline powered vehicles. The car is a well-balanced structure; the batteries are in the middle of the vehicle, giving the driver great handling ability. Most EVs can perform up to par with gas-powered vehicles, although they cannot achieve the same top speeds. Many EVs can beat gas-powered cars "off the line" because an electric motor produces full torque instantaneously whereas an ICE must build up torque.

The reliability of an EV
Many EVs have been customized with special features such as resealable tires, programmable charging systems, and regenerative breaking. In addition, they have proven to be low maintenance and fairly cost efficient vehicles, with batteries that can last up to four years or 40,000 miles (depending upon the type of batteries being used). Most car companies lease their EVs however, so the consumer never has to cover the cost of replacing the battery pack.

The safety and the concern of an EV
For safety features, circuit breakers and fusible links are installed to make explosions, fires, and electrocution a highly unlikely experience. In car accidents, EVs are considered to withstand impact a lot better than most gasoline-powered vehicles, as the fluid filled batteries help to absorb most of the impact. However, if the sealed lead-acid batteries should some how rupture and a person comes in contact with the fluid, the acid can cause serious harm unless thoroughly cleansed with water very rapidly.

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Who would waste 45k, on a pure ev that can go 100 miles per full charge. Unless your someone that's retired & living in a trailer park with a grocery store around the corner & if you hit the lottery & have money to throw around on what's in at the time and can absorb the costs.

I don't see the sence in it, when you can drive a hybrid and go 4 times as far for 1/2 the money..???

tigerhonaker · #2 (**permalink**) 02-11-2006, 11:37 AM

Hum

Terry

edovando · #3 (**permalink**) 02-11-2006, 09:36 PM

I settled on a hybrid, I would have much preffered an EV. The problem is that #1 as you mentioned the mileage was better 40 years ago. With all the technological advances you would think we would have a battery that can hold a better charge. #2 there wasn't a real car out there. The Saturn EV1 came close but then dissappeared due to the leases with no buy out option. I have no issue plugging my car in! My dad jokes: "the have a working electic car, the problem is, they haven't invented an extension cord long enough".

Sledge · #4 (**permalink**) 02-12-2006, 05:03 AM

My perfect car would be an EV with an auxiliary generator trailer. My daily commute is a grand total of 18 miles; easily handled by "ancient" lead-acid battery tech (though I'd prefer some nice lightweight Li-Ions

).

jstack6 · #5 (**permalink**) 02-12-2006, 09:06 AM

You never mentioned the best EV EVer made, of course it's not by a major car manufactureer. It the T-Zero by AC Propulsions. It goes over 300 miles on a charge. They will convert SCION vehicles later in 2006. They are the best, most efficient.
Check out www.acpropulsions.com

PriusGuy04 · #6 (**permalink**) 02-12-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstack6

You never mentioned the best EV EVer made, of course it's not by a major car manufactureer. It the T-Zero by AC Propulsions. It goes over 300 miles on a charge. They will convert SCION vehicles later in 2006. They are the best, most efficient.
Check out www.acpropulsions.com

thats a dead link

Yes I think I mentioned it in another posting on this site somewere, thats the company that offers a pull behind trailer with a gas motor set up to generate elctricity so you can go farther. Its a charger that runs on gas, is not that defeating the purpose of being a totally green vehicle as you are still relying on gasoline?

The only non-kit car looking EV was the ranger and the Rav4EV.

The others I would be afraid of some one in a VW beetle hitting me and causing me a trip to the hospital

..

I have also seen the motorcycle with the lead acid batteries on it instead of a motor (thats really scary) ..

It just seems that EV is a toy, they play with it a while then put it away until next time.. (maybe one day they will come up with an EV that will perform like a hybrid) but until then we should reap the benefits of our present hybrid technology.

The present Hybrid is here and has been around since 1997...

Maybe one day we'll have a car that has a that is salt water/ battery powered until those natural nesesities are taxed to the point that oil is and they will need to find something else to use..

SomervillePrius · #7 (**permalink**) 02-13-2006, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PriusGuy04

thats a dead link

It just seems that EV is a toy, they play with it a while then put it away until next time.. (maybe one day they will come up with an EV that will perform like a hybrid) but until then we should reap the benefits of our present hybrid technology.

The present Hybrid is here and has been around since 1997...

You really don't want to like EV's do you? What is it with EV cars that frightens you so? Do you own stock in GM or something?

The fact is that AC Propulsions 'tzero' car can go from Silicon Valley to Los Angeles (300+ miles) at highway speeds one one charge. It also has better accelleration then a ferrari or porche. How is this a 'toy' car? Sure it looks funky but it's from a small manufacturer trying to prove a point! For more info see this link http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm

They are also developing a Scion Xb convertion (it will look just as normal as the Rav IV and Ford Pick-up if different scares you). This car exists as a prototype at the moment ant will have a range of either 150 miles or 300 miles (depending upon how many battery packs ordered) at highway speed and on one charge. This car will also outperform all normal cars.

How are these toy cars? I consider the Prius 'old' technology and rather dated. It's a shame that we went backwards and ended up with rather limited hybrids when GM, FORD and TOYOTA had fully functional EV cars on the market (using very old battery technology) 10 years ago

Me and my Fiancee are planning on buying a Scion Xb EV car from ACPropulsion as soon as they are available. Once we get that one I will never have to go to a gas station again! I will simply spend 4 seconds plugging the car in at night and then unplugging it in the morning. I trade those 4 seconds from ever haveing to stand in-line at a pump again!

So EV cars are fairly viable cars. Sure, most people can't rely on a EV car alone, but most households have two cars already. Having an EV car and a old tech hybrid would be the perfect combination. The person with the longer commute could use the EV car daily. And then when you really have to do more then 150 miles/day (rare!) you can use your hybrid.

So yeah EV cars are viable today. The main thing at the moment is battery prize/technology. Though it looks like both problems are being solved.

There where many reason that EV cars where killed. One was def. cost (they didn't make money on them) but another was that CA's CARB requirements where reduced after our friendly car manufacturers sued them. As soon as CA changed their emission standard the EV cars where killed even though they had proven themself fully functional and working.

If you want more information about EV cars take a look at this page: http://www.darelldd.com/ev/
For a private page from a person who uses his EV car as the main car in his family.

jstack6 · #8 (**permalink**) 02-13-2006, 08:07 AM

They can pull a long ranger trailer but get over 300 miles on pure batteries. Lithium is amazing. The optional trailer would only be needed if you went cross country and couldn't stop to chanrge at RV locations or some other places.

http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/Products...n_Products.htm

PriusGuy04 · #9 (**permalink**) 02-13-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomervillePrius

You really don't want to like EV's do you? What is it with EV cars that frightens you so? Do you own stock in GM or something?

The fact is that AC Propulsions 'tzero' car can go from Silicon Valley to Los Angeles (300+ miles) at highway speeds one one charge. It also has better accelleration then a ferrari or porche. How is this a 'toy' car? Sure it looks funky but it's from a small manufacturer trying to prove a point! For more info see this link http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm

They are also developing a Scion Xb convertion (it will look just as normal as the Rav IV and Ford Pick-up if different scares you). This car exists as a prototype at the moment ant will have a range of either 150 miles or 300 miles (depending upon how many battery packs ordered) at highway speed and on one charge. This car will also outperform all normal cars.

How are these toy cars? I consider the Prius 'old' technology and rather dated. It's a shame that we went backwards and ended up with rather limited hybrids when GM, FORD and TOYOTA had fully functional EV cars on the market (using very old battery technology) 10 years ago

Me and my Fiancee are planning on buying a Scion Xb EV car from ACPropulsion as soon as they are available. Once we get that one I will never have to go to a gas station again! I will simply spend 4 seconds plugging the car in at night and then unplugging it in the morning. I trade those 4 seconds from ever haveing to stand in-line at a pump again!

So EV cars are fairly viable cars. Sure, most people can't rely on a EV car alone, but most households have two cars already. Having an EV car and a old tech hybrid would be the perfect combination. The person with the longer commute could use the EV car daily. And then when you really have to do more then 150 miles/day (rare!) you can use your hybrid.

So yeah EV cars are viable today. The main thing at the moment is battery prize/technology. Though it looks like both problems are being solved.

There where many reason that EV cars where killed. One was def. cost (they didn't make money on them) but another was that CA's CARB requirements where reduced after our friendly car manufacturers sued them. As soon as CA changed their emission standard the EV cars where killed even though they had proven themself fully functional and working.

If you want more information about EV cars take a look at this page: http://www.darelldd.com/ev/
For a private page from a person who uses his EV car as the main car in his family.

Well I think you should buy one

..

Im not scared by EV, I just want people to know that most of todays EV's are the same as yeaster years as far as mileage vs charge. Thats great if the can have a vehicle that can go 300mi. The one pictured looks like a kit car as do most of the ones made (excluding the rav4ev & the ranger)

Yes and your still using power from a fossil fuel, this is an endless argument. That no matter what you or I say will continue untill they are mass produced and proven that you can go farther than the old as you say tech hybrids..

PriusGuy04 · #10 (**permalink**) 02-13-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PriusGuy04

Well I think you should buy one

..

Im not scared by EV, I just want people to know that most of todays EV's are the same as yester years as far as mileage vs charge and are not this new thing.

Thats great if the can have a vehicle that can go 300mi. The one pictured looks like a kit car as do most of the ones made (excluding the rav4ev & the ranger)

Yes and your still using power from a fossil fuel, this is an endless argument. That no matter what you or I say will continue untill they are mass produced and proven that you can go farther than the old as you say tech hybrids..

I dont have the same EV vision you have The hybrids we have now are cutting edge in the usa. Ive used EV before when Im cruising around the golf course..