I answered this statement using the quote, My repliese are in blue..

{SomervillePrius]You really don't want to like EV's do you? What is it with EV cars that frightens you so? Do you own stock in GM or something? LOL no I dont own stock in GM, EV cars dont frighten me I just want to pass on that this technology has been tried and kept on a smaller level...

The fact is that AC Propulsions 'tzero' car can go from Silicon Valley to Los Angeles (300+ miles) at highway speeds one one charge. It also has better accelleration then a ferrari or porche. How is this a 'toy' car? Sure it looks funky but it's from a small manufacturer trying to prove a point! For more info see this link http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm

AC Propulsions 'tzero' car looks like a kit car as do the others (excluding The RAV4EV & the Ranger and yes the accelleration is impressive.

They are also developing a Scion Xb convertion (it will look just as normal as the Rav IV and Ford Pick-up if different scares you). This car exists as a prototype at the moment and will have a range of either 150 miles or 300 miles (depending upon how many battery packs ordered) at highway speed and on one charge. This car will also outperform all normal cars. I would have to wait and see the cars performance and rating and cost to the public.


How are these toy cars? I consider the Prius 'old' technology and rather dated. It's a shame that we went backwards and ended up with rather limited hybrids when GM, FORD and TOYOTA had fully functional EV cars on the market (using very old battery technology) 10 years ago
The hybrid technology is very new hereas stated in many articles as being cutting edge.. how do you see us moving backwards?


Me and my Fiancee are planning on buying a Scion Xb EV car from ACPropulsion as soon as they are available. Once we get that one I will never have to go to a gas station again! I will simply spend 4 seconds plugging the car in at night and then unplugging it in the morning. I trade those 4 seconds from ever haveing to stand in-line at a pump again! What a beutiful concept you'll have to pass on how it performs to the rest of us..

So EV cars are fairly viable cars. Sure, most people can't rely on a EV car alone, but most households have two cars already. Having an EV car and a old tech hybrid would be the perfect combination. The person with the longer commute could use the EV car daily. And then when you really have to do more then 150 miles/day (rare!) you can use your hybrid. Well I guess a EV would work for some and not for others the concept is being played off as its new Im just spreading the word it isn't..

So yeah EV cars are viable today. The main thing at the moment is battery prize/technology. Though it looks like both problems are being solved.

There where many reason that EV cars where killed. One was def. cost (they didn't make money on them) but another was that CA's CARB requirements where reduced after our friendly car manufacturers sued them. As soon as CA changed their emission standard the EV cars where killed even though they had proven themself fully functional and working. Todays EV's are in the same boat regarding costs it seems..



If you want more information about EV cars take a look at this page: http://www.darelldd.com/ev/

This is a site I used for some of my posting statements.

For a private page from a person who uses his EV car as the main car in his family. Im glad to see that someone has found a way to make it work for them.. the maximum miles for a 5 passenger EV at this time is 100 miles on a full charge and at a cost of a used Rav4 EV being in the nieghborhood of 40-45k as stated on this site in another thread I dont think its feasible for most families on a buget to buy one.

Im sorry if I have offended you by my post, but we are all entiteled to our opinions and I have voiced mine and you have voiced yours This seems like very hot heated topic..

04' # 5, W/leather & JBL omitted.
"Prius, Just ask the person that drives one"
04' Tundra, 18mpg city & 22mpg hwy.
04' Prius, 60mpg city & 53mpg hwy.

Kenstyle NHW20 AERO Kit

The real reason we don't have EV cars is energy density.
Short of RadioActive decay, you can't get more energy per pound than gasoline, and gasoline related products. Gasoline is a **** good product!

You wanna know why there will NEVER EVER be a solar powered family car?
The SUN does not put out enough energy! Literally!

The sun, on a good day, puts out 1500 watts per square meter.
Let's be totally ridiculous, and say you have 100% effiecient PV cells, and you have an SUV with 10 square meters of surface on the roof and hood.

On the clearest, brightest, cloudless, sunny summer day, the MOST electricity you can get from the sun is 15,000 watts. ( 20 horsepower ).

Now in reality, solar is about 50% efficient, ( you can use about 50% of what hits your roof ). Now, best case senario is 10 hoursepower. Now add clouds, or a low sun angle in winter, and you get 5 horsepower.

Plugging in at night means you burn fossil fuel miles from your house, and then have to convert it up and down in voltage, and transmit it 10's or 100's of miles, all of which has losses, which = wasted power. You would be better off to just burn the gas in your car and forget all the lossy conversions!

( In rare and limited places ( like 5% of the U.S. ) Hydro Electric "may" have a net advantage to plugging into the grid at night, since you're not burning FF... )

My point is, there are law of phisics you cannot breach, no matter how much money you spend, or what technology comes along.

WE DO NOT NEED Electric Cars!

WE NEED CARS THAT TAKE LESS ENERGY! ( need fewer Horsepower )

Once you get people used to the idea of driving 5 HP cars, electric becomes viable. Once you get cars down to 5 HP, all kinds of options become viable.

A 100HP electric vehicle will "burn" the same amount of fuel as a 100HP gasoline car. FACT OF NATURE... NOT UP FOR DEBATE.

A Btu is a Btu, a Joule is a Joule, a calorie is a calorie, and a watt is a watt.

What we need as a race of people, is to learn how to do more with less.
( Unless you want to go nuclear... then all your problems are solved, quite easily, and quite cheaply.)

In a couple hundered years, I would not be at all surpirsed if nucler power dominates. Necessity is the mother of all invention. Right now, we don't need to go nuclear. Gas is STILL the best bargain on the planet.

Hybrids are a step at CONSERVATION. Hybrids do more with less waste. They do not get something for nothing. With the regenerative brakes, they simply waste less. Also, my Hybrid, around town, runs at about 140 degrees. Cooler than any conventional car engine. ( Don't know how "cool" a Pruis runs at, but probably similar.) A lot less of my gas is going into waste heat. That is something rarely discussed on these groups.

A battery only car may be a very convienient car. It may have a "niche".
From a scientific standpoint, it has little advantage, maybe none at all over other vehicles. THIS is why we don't have them everywhere. If they were such a great thing, private parties who were not "in bed" with the oil industry would be making EV's all over the place.

Try making one yourself, as a hobby or "kit" car. You'll soon find it has fewer pros than cons.

IMHO, Hybids are cool because they waste less fuel. They recycle.
It's like using your plastic fork twice before throwing it out and getting a new one. It'd doesn't make new forks, and it can't use the same one forever... but it creates less waste, from many angles.

-J

WOW!
Very well said... You covered all the bases


Not to mention if they had the better technology wouldn't they be using it today since they say todays tech. is 10yrs old???
I guess they are ranking the tech like they do computers every yr it becomes obsolete..??

04' # 5, W/leather & JBL omitted.
"Prius, Just ask the person that drives one"
04' Tundra, 18mpg city & 22mpg hwy.
04' Prius, 60mpg city & 53mpg hwy.

Kenstyle NHW20 AERO Kit

The Rav4 EV has a range of 100 miles using NiMH batteries that were state of the art 10 years ago and contain only 65 Watt-hours per kilo (the energy density you refer to).

Today, Sony lithium-ion 18650 cells are at 220 Wh/kg (and constantly improving), which means that if you replaced the battery in the Rav4 EV with a modern ACP/Sony LiIon pack of the same weight, it would contain 3.4 times as much energy, meaning a range of 340 miles, which is about the same as the gasoline Rav4.

Energy density is no longer the limiting factor for EVs, ACP and others have proved this.

Your sums are all wrong.
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/socar1.htm

The best you can get out of a solar setup on a Prius sized vehicle is about 1 kW (or a little over 1 horsepower). Annual average (US wide) is 5 kWh per day over the area you could cover with cells.

But you DON'T use that energy to power the car directly, suggesting such a thing is just ridiculous. You use it to charge the batteries of an EV. Doing this would give you an average of 20 miles free range per day, the remainder coming from what you get from plugging-in at home, any excess being sold back to the utility. Here's an example.

Exactly! Which is why no fossil fuel powered vehicle will ever be able to compete with an EV in outright efficiency.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm

I think EV is certainly a viable "niche" car, and one that could sell a great deal if the manufacturers offered them. EV technology would be *awesome* for daily commutes and local shopping. Even if the range was only
100 miles, most people could use them for commuting and errands.

Of course, the day that battery tech approaches 500-600 Kw/Kg, then you'll see EV cars being viable as *primary* vehicles, rather than *niche* vehicles.

Even with today's tech, I would gladly buy a Civic EV if the made one.

Wow...

Well, I could certainly see owning a little plug in EV car as a second car, for about town errands, where I wouldn't drive more than 50 miles, and as little as 2. Additionally it would probably do well with those "niche" people who don't drive a lot or very far. Something small, with enough room for groceries and two people.

However, for the long term/distance, I have to agree that hybrids like what we've got are the way to go.

First 4WD Hypermiler

Have you read the FEH FAQ?

Live in Michigan? Let it be known in Michigan Roll Call

Read My Automotive Blog at Rich Rambles

Well I will have to admit I agree with your statment and I to would own one under those sercumstances....

04' # 5, W/leather & JBL omitted.
"Prius, Just ask the person that drives one"
04' Tundra, 18mpg city & 22mpg hwy.
04' Prius, 60mpg city & 53mpg hwy.

Kenstyle NHW20 AERO Kit

[quote=clett] Posted by clett
Today, Sony lithium-ion 18650 cells are at 220 Wh/kg (and constantly improving), which means that if you replaced the battery in the Rav4 EV with a modern ACP/Sony LiIon pack of the same weight, it would contain 3.4 times as much energy, meaning a range of 340 miles, which is about the same as the gasoline Rav4.

What you forget is LiIon take TWICE as long to recharge as discharge... and have a nasty habit of catching on fire or exploding under high current conditions.
This, for the large part, make them unsuitable at this time for vehicle use.



Your sums are all wrong.
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/socar1.htm

Thanks for backing my point up. I was being overly generous by suggesting solar electricity is 50% effiecient. Per your source,
quote: ".... the efficiencies of converting sunlight into electricity for these types of cell have been roughly considered to be: 17-23%, 13-17% and 8-12%, for the different types of cell respectively. "

SO... unless you get electricty from Hydro or Nuclear.... EV's are NOT feasible at this time.
Getting power from the grid is NOT an advantage.
As of right now, a day of solar charging will net you 2-4 miles of EV driving... NOT 30 miles!
And it is TOTALLY cost prohibative to do so.

-John

What you forget is LiIon take TWICE as long to recharge as discharge... and have a nasty habit of catching on fire or exploding under high current conditions.
This, for the large part, make them unsuitable at this time for vehicle use.

Ooooh, that wouldnt be good "floor it, and burst into flames"
The charging part would be a big factor too. run it low and charge for twice the amount of time, I would guess those would be LiIon cons..

04' # 5, W/leather & JBL omitted.
"Prius, Just ask the person that drives one"
04' Tundra, 18mpg city & 22mpg hwy.
04' Prius, 60mpg city & 53mpg hwy.

Kenstyle NHW20 AERO Kit

Can I remind you that the latest lithium ion batteries recharge to 80% in just 1 minute, and fully charge in 5 minutes. At least three different companies have these now. You can read about Toshiba's here:

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_03/pr2901.htm


Please take a look at this video:

http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp

Given the right electrode material, you can shoot, pierce, flame, crush and overcharge Lithium-ion with no ill effects whatsoever.


Except that Toyota have already been using Lithium-ion in the Toyota Vitz in Japan for years now. And Nissan used them in the Altra and Hypermini vehicles too. Also currently used in the Venturi Fetish, E-Drive plug-in Prius conversion, T-Zero and Wrightspeed X-1.


Even when the electricity comes from the worst source of all - coal - the total pollution and primary energy used is LESS with an EV than an equivalent gasoline or diesel car, both in terms of CO2 and other pollutants.

Oh, and of course the EV has waaaay cheaper fuel costs.

Sounds quite feasible to me.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ecotech/ecot.htm