Measured against what? There is no such thing as a non-hybrid Prius so you can not have any basis for comparison. Please try not to make the Prius sound so much better than the Civic or I will be forced to point out how the version of the Civic I own (gen1 MT) gets better mileage according to our database than the Prius.

lakedude, wow that is a tough one?Gee, what will I compare a 175" long 68' wide 2900 lbs 4 door subcompact car against?Let me think about it for a nanosecond:
1)Civic
2)Corolla
3)Matrix-best match
4)Focus
5)Mazda 3
6)Neon
7)Sentra
Got the idea yet??
Now the Civic Hybrid takes a bit less imagination, let's compare it against a -Civic non hybrid.
See, it wasn't that hard!! Now you try it!

Ok I'll give it a spin. Rigger drives a Matrix and according to our database he gets 34.3 mpg. This is actually above the Matrix's EPA rating but we will use it anyway. Now we will compare to both the Civic and Prius.

Civic MT 48.3 from the database
Prius 47.6 also from the database

A 41% improvement over the Matrix for the Civic and a 39% improvement over the Matrix for the Prius.

your challegening one tough hypermilier... your underestimating what a MT HCH can do... it can easily smash a prius I under the same conditions or different competitive mileage situations. I know if I get my hands on one... you'll never see under a 60 mpg for my lifetime if I ever get one (which is never).

until then i'm happy with mid 40 mpg and climbing to 50's!

by the way lakedude i meant to ask you, does your HCH buckle down when your rpms are too low and your in high gear? or does the EV smooth it out for you if your engine has high load?

just so i'm not off topic, any details about the BAS Saturn Aura car? I'm having high hopes in terms of hypermiling capability with that car, plus its a nice mid size sedan Will it use the same system as the VUE green line or even an improved version of it?

i got around 20 km a liter when i drove a civic 5 spd using advanced hypermiler techniques
and now I drive a salvage nwh20 prius that gets almost to 25 km/l with 195,000 km to date.

No, let's ignore the database here for data that was obtained in a controlled fashion.

car EPA CR
2006 HCH 49/51 26/47
2006 Civic auto 30/40 18/43
Prius 2004 60/51 35/50
Matrix 2006 28/34 19/36
The numbers speak!!
You are misconstruing my intention, of course.My statement was clear enough-but I'll make it more clear. THE 2006 HCH IS ABOUT 33% BETTER THAN THE AUTO TRANS 2006 CIVIC. THE CURRENT PRIUS IS BETTER THAN 33% BETTER THAN ANY NON HYBRID AUTO TRANS THAT TOYOTA MAKES THAT IS ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT TO IT IN SIZE,WT,CAPACITY(Matrix,Corolla-heck, you can throw in the Scions).
It isn't my fault that the current Prius gets better numbers than the HCH. Take that up with Honda, or the EPA, or CR. Thanks,Charlie
PS If I had an ounce of sense, I wouldn't allow myself to be drawn into a battle(Honda vs Toyota hybrids) that predates me; a battle I don't really have a lot of interest in. I actually prefer Honda as a corp,and I currently own a Honda, but like I said,"if I had an ounce of sense." The numbers(Civic H vs Prius) favor the current Prius-simple as that.Show me the EPA or CR numbers that show otherwise? They are the only groups that do unbiased, controlled tests.

Phil-dude

IMA does smooth things out somewhat but the car still shakes like a old school diesel if you let the RPMs get too low.

Charlie

I hear you but why bother using 2 different non-hybrid comparison vehicles and why use the Prius EPA ratings when they are clearly inflated.

Let me put it another way. You are penalizing the Civic hybrid because the non-hybrid Civic gets good mileage while at the same time you are rewarding the Prius for having inflated EPA City figures.

Use the numbers in our database and compare both the Prius and Gen1 HCH MT to ANY other single vehicle (like the non-hybrid Civic) and the HCH will come out slightly on top every time.

I'm trying to be as fair as possible. If I wanted to be a brat about it I'd ask you to compare your personal Prius to my personal HCH directly.

Please don't take me the wrong way. I'm a huge Prius fan. The Prius a great car that can do fantastic things. Thing is the Civic is also a great car but the Civic has trouble getting the respect it deserves.

cheers to that! i love the prius as well but some people look down upon the ima system, undeservedly so. fact is, ima delivers on par (if not better) results than hsd yet does so in a more elegant, uncomplicated system.

how low we talking about here? 1000 rpms in 2nd or 3rd gears? bah why should i care ill never get one anyway, let alone they don't sell the MT here in canada.

I still dream about having a 1st generation prius (2001 -03) model, i just love how small and agile it is. If i get that kind of car, i'll never get under 70 mpg with it I don't care if I have to get rear ended to get that kind of mileage, its totally meant for it.

i got around 20 km a liter when i drove a civic 5 spd using advanced hypermiler techniques
and now I drive a salvage nwh20 prius that gets almost to 25 km/l with 195,000 km to date.

The EPA tests are well defined and are reproducable. They provide a well defined base but are not the end game.

Once I mapped out Prius I performance, I followed the speed limits of the EPA City profile for my warm-up and cool-down phases. This has made a substantial improvement in my daily commute performance . . . especially on standard days, 70 (F). But on the highway, I use a different profile than the EPA Highway protocol and also get much better than EPA numbers. The trick is avoiding the inefficient speed range, 39-50 MPH.

I'll agree with 'slightly'. I'd also point out that there is not enough information to repeat someone's mileage entry from the data provided. This lack of reproducability means we don't really know why one driver gets great MPG and another terrible. Even within one driver's performance data, otherwise identical characteristics can result in a wide variation in MPG.

Yours is a CVT / automatic HCH?

The Honda hybrids are pretty good cars too. It is the concept of "respect" without performance charts and data that confuses me.

If you bring out an MPG vs. MPH mileage chart, we'll have empirical data and can actually do an apple-to-apple and oranges-to-oranges comparison. More importantly, the data may reveal "bad speeds" or "knees" in the data that should be avoided. For example, I would expect to see inflection points at different gears in the HCH MT vehicles. This would be critical to determine the optimum "shift-up" and "shift-down" points for maximum MPG. Now I don't follow HCH technology, my hands are full with Prius performance research, but the one "How to Drive" article didn't have a single graph or table. The only reason I read the report is a Civic owner posted it as 'this is how you should drive your Prius' without realization how different the cars are.

Bring empirical data, charts or tables, with enough detail that it can be reproduced, and you'll find my respect goes up significantly. Ad hoc and anecdotal reports have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Martin –



My information goes back to 2003 – here are my email exchanges with Saturn.com concerning the “advanced hybrid” VUE that was originally planned:



-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08/23/2003 16:35:29
To: e-mail@saturncars.com
Subject: Saturn VUE Hybrid???

I bought my first Saturn, a 1999 SL-1 almost exactly 5 years ago, & I really
like it.

I've been interested in the Saturn VUE ever since it was a gleam on this
website. And now I read in Parade magazine that a hybrid-fueled VUE is "on
the horizon". Can you tell me any more about this?

My husband is a handyman, & his Envoy has become his "travelling tool-box",
but he's more than 6 feet tall, & doesn't fit in my little car very well, so
we've been talking about the VUE as my next vehicle, & our "family" car.
But we have to build a new garage first, so it will probably be at least 2
years before we're in a position to buy one. Any chance this hybrid VUE
will be on the market by then?



Dear Debbie,

Thank you for taking the time to e-mail Saturn. Actually, Saturn does have
plans in place at this time to produce a hybrid vehicle! The VUE Hybrid is
scheduled to debut during the last quarter of the 2005 calendar year.

Our advanced hybrid system will be designed specifically for U.S. driving
patterns and will optimize both city and highway fuel efficiency. This
system will be more functional alternative to other gas/electric hybrids.
The VUE Hybrid is expected to boost fuel efficiency up to 50 percent.

I hope this information is helpful. I recommend you keep an eye on our
website, www.saturn.com for future updates of the VUE Hybrid. Please feel
welcome to contact us again, via e-mail or call our Customer Assistance
Center at 800-553-6000, prompt 3.

Have a great day!

Sincerely,

Neva Ferguson
Saturn Customer Assistance Center

-----Original Message-----

Sent: 08/03/2004 11:12:55
To: e-mail@saturncars.com
Subject: Say it isn't so!

I recently heard a rumor that the gas-electric hybrid VUE that you
told me was planned for Fall 2005 isn't going to come out after all! :-(

I've been *so* looking forward to trading my little SL1 in on a vehicle
in which my 6'2" husband can be more comfortable, but which will give me
gas consumption closer to that of the little cars I prefer. And when I
read about your plans for the VUE, it sounded like just what I wanted -
& would be available just when I would be ready to buy a new vehicle.

PLEASE tell me this isn't true!



Hello Debbie,

We appreciate the time you have taken to write to Saturn. We appreciate the
time you have taken to write to Saturn. We have only discontinued our
program to build the advanced hybrid system. Instead, the Saturn Hybrid VUE
is scheduled for production in Spring of 2006. It will get GM's Belt
Alternator Starter (BAS) hybrid system coupled to a CVT, which will get an
estimated fuel-economy improvement of 12 percent to 15 percent.

The Saturn VUE is an appropriate vehicle for a hybrid application because of
its functionality. VUE already leads its segment in powertrain options and
the addition of a hybrid was a natural choice.

I would encourage you to check with us perodically for updates. Of course,
you are always welcome to check the Saturn website for additional
information, as it becomes available.

Please feel free to e-mail us again or call us at 1-800-553-6000, prompt 3.

Sincerely,


Sheron Hobgood
Saturn Customer Assistance Center





And while I can’t find the press releases online anymore, my recollection is that it was someone from GM who said that while the price of a gallon of gasoline was <$2.50, few people would be willing to pay the premium for a hybrid VUE.



Purrs,

DebbieKatz

^^

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Purrs,
Debbie




I my FEH