Link is found here , GM just cannot catch a break..


http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=1106

No amount of wishful thinking can correct a fatally flawed technology and I suspect Toyota got tired of dealing with PowerPoint engineering.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

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Fact of the matter is, GM is probably a little further along on fuel cells than Toyota is and knows what it takes to go it alone. This isn't to say that Toyota is a slug, because they are certainly in the game, despite their ocassional public comments that fuel cells are not the next big thing. FCEVs are basically hybrids, with the ICE replaced by a hydrogen propelled engine. Toyota knows how to do hybrids, so a progression to FCEV is not too big a stretch. Re-fueling infrastracture, hydrogen storage, and $ / kw are the biggest obstacles to deployment.

The mutual decisions to not continue the joint activity are more based on development objectives and separate plans for execution. Reading any more into it is reading too much into it. GM and Toyota still have several joint R&D activities going on and recently recommitted to some of them.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

Hi Martin,
You are hitting around several of the major H(2) problems:
- low energy density
- cost of H(2) production
- no practical regeneration
- fuel cell aging and narrow operational range

Worse, GM has little or no practical experience with hybrid vehicles except for a hundred or so buses. Dating serious hybrid-electric from 1997 when Toyota introduced the NHW10 in Japan, GM has been all but 'marking time.' GM doesn't have a fleet approaching 1,000,000 vehicles to draw operational experience. Heck, if it weren't for the Freedom Car initiative, we'd be all but ignorant of how these vehicle work in the real world.

Ford started catching up in 2004 with their Escape. Curiously, when Ford was doing their 2005 'employee pricing' sale, the Escape hybrid was excluded. Ford was suffering the same problem Toyota continues to suffer from: customer demand far outstriping supply.

BTW, one of the last documents from Al Gore's "high mileage vehicle" program was a GM proposal to use hydrolic motors and a nitrogen charged, pressure vessel to handle regenerative braking. I thought, still think, this is an interesting idea that scales well for larger vehicles and utility size trucks. But that GM proposal died with the H(2) fraud.

I have nothing against GM employees, engineers or anyone else. But I can't buy inefficient vehicles and GM has not figured that out. You'd have thought they would have tracked the size of the lines at the Toyota dealers since 2001 and gotten a clue but . . .

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Hello Bob,

I could debate with you about GM's level of understanding of hybrid technology and applications from now 'til sundown and we'd both leave holding the same opinions, so I won't go there. I'll simply say you under-estimate what GM knows about hybrids. I have 2nd hand knowledge of what GM taught Toyota. (I worked on a different project for the guy who taught them).

Or looked at another way, why provide employees and customers a discount on a product that you lose money selling? Don't get me wrong, I applaud Ford on the development and marketing of the Escape Hybrid. It's an excellent product. But the fact that they purchase the hybrid components from Aisin (a keiretsu of Toyota) the overall vehicle is sold at a financial loss until they can engineer in cost improvements.

I'm not certain whether it did or did not die. GM had a joint venture on hybrid development with Toyota. When it was determined that the resulting product would be inferior to a product derived from basically scaling down the bus hybrid system (I'm grossly over-simplifying) the joint venture was terminated and GM focused on the 2-Mode concept. The 2-Mode Hybrid Tahoe and Yukon will be the first products to use the resulting system. My point is, it is logical to believe that on the way to refining the Al Gore "High Mileage Vehicle", a better development path was discovered and followed. Happens all the time in my world.

How efficient GM and Toyota vehicles are on a product by product basis is VERRRRY subjective. On small cars (Corolla and smaller) Toyota has a distinct advantage. As soon as you get into the Camry / Malibu / Impala / Avalon sized vehicles I can scope comparisons to favor either company. The Camry is basically a Malibu sized vehicle, but the base V6 version of the larger Impala gets better fuel economy and has more horsepower than the base V6 version of the smaller Camry. Beyond a certain point, it's all spin, baby

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I hate to ask but GM announced some layoffs. Did any fall around the hybrid electric team?

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

None that I know of. But then again I haven't seen (or asked for) a listing of names. These layoffs are start of the implementation of the 7% reduction in salaried employment that Rick Wagoner announced in his meetings with Wall Street analysts back in November. Even here in Detroit where the media should know better, they're being treated as separate events. It's just like when last June Rick announced that we'd close some plants to level out capacity. Then in November when the plants were identified, the press reacted as if the two announcements were additive.

My understanding of the layoffs is that most of them occurred in areas where technology is replacing specific skillsets. For example, we used to have a great number of clay modelers who would actually sculpt scale models of future product designs. Now most of that work is done by computerized math models. Doesn't make it any easier to swallow, but the point is there is a focused effort on not impacting areas of key strategic focus.

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues