Not true, not true. When the program was started, it was communicated to all customers that this was a LEASE ONLY program and that at the end of the lease period, all the cars would need to be returned to GM. Part of the rationale was that the battery technology was still evolving and that even if the program became a permanent vehicle program, there would probably be different batteries deployed and they would not necessarily retrofit to the original EV1s. This would mean that if someone were to BUY an original EV1 instead of lease and return, they would be stuck with an orphan battery technology OR GM would have to maintain an inventory of obsolete batteries for sale to customers on a service basis at an unreasonably high price. This would have done more damage to customer relations than to just say "you can't buy the car, you can only lease it". There were other considerations that went into the decision, but I am not at liberty to discuss those. Gets into product program stuff that is always confidential.

As for forgetting the program ever existed....Hardly a week goes by that I don't see an EV1 somewhere on our property. We still get some learnings from the program.

Again, not true. A lot was learned about electronics control systems and energy management. Some of which, unfortunately, was shared with Toyota when we were in co-development on a vehicle that eventually spawned the HiHi and RX 400h. We allowed the co-development to end because we found the Two-Mode technology to be a better solution. Calling it a "force-fit ... hybrid system from a diesel locomotive down into a full-size SUV " is a fairly severe over-simplification. It is a logical assumption based on how public info around the two systems have been communicated publicly. Having been closely involved with some of the Two-Mode development, I have access to info that you couldn't possibly have access to, or I might draw similar conclusions to those that you have drawn.

Another thread, another time. Dinner awaits

Peace,

Martin

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

I am NOT the official voice of GM with respect to Hybrid issues

martinjlm,

I've had regrets at times as you have endured a lot of negative posts. Yes, I'm not a SUV fan, but I understand that the smaller ones and the CUVs are basically used like stations wagons in the 1970's, and respect the people that load them up (prefer the CUVs over the small SUVs).

It's my earnest wish that GM turns the corner and while it does so, that it recaptures a larger share of the smalller vehicles. I know that labor costs are making that difficult to do, but I hope over the next few years, it can be done without additional reductions in force. Articles say the next five years of controling costs will be difficult. And I want to also say consumer tastes are the root of it all, not the automakers, not the government. I've noted more GM Metros put back on the road in recent months.

Yes, your have conducted yourself well, martinjlm. Yes, you are right on that the same three 3 people from last week's closed thread makes playgroundish "I HATE Delta Flyer" post to just let it go. It's really about the only thing they want to say ad nauseum, which basically answered my question on this thread.

Like another forum, I'm more willing to understand the other side when I'm in a less combative environment. Just today, I posted at www.cleanmpg.com that many of the big vehicle drivers probably don't realize how much room they need to allow to avoid hitting others. For small car drivers like myself, I need to be aware big rigs can't stop on a dime... Many drivers might improve just being aware of driving a totally different vehicle.

I'm more and more convinced that the driving experince on the roads and the ones driving is all about behavior. Driving is not going from point A to point B, there is all kinds of anger and inconsiderate actions exhibited on the roads. Vehicles are often not tools, but a "trophy" and maybe too much of an extension of the driver. Road safety and fuel economy will be helped a lot more by an attitude change than education.

As far as the rude big pickup truck drivers go, some of that is at 6-7am a lot of them are on the road and driven by blue-collar and low-skilled people that are probably less concerned about how they drive and meeting deadlines. (not that there are well-heeled ones that do it too....)

In the 1980's Dallas-area police really cracked down on school zones after a couple of kids were killed by dump trucks in too big a hurry. When you pay someone by how many loads they deliver, it encourages some to speed, just like Domino's pizza delivery a few years ago.

61.5mpg lifetime - 82mpg in recent months

Best Run >
www.cleanmpg.com

"fanatic" is what the lazy call the dedicated

Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
Just the presence of an Insight or Prius alongside a Hummer can create all the tension you could ask for.
Originally Posted by Mr. Kite
Why is that?
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
Mr. Kite, respect the fact Suburban Sprawl & Excess example at its' best is closed.

Stop attempting to bring it back by doing things such as searching old posts.


Which is it "respect", or "flame-bait"?

Since you called me out with your,

Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
...and an apparent friend of his that PMed a diatribe)


I've decided I'd go ahead and post my PM to you that you couldn't keep private.

Originally Posted by Worthywads PM to Delta Flyer
The man may have been trembling or nervous or however you saw it, but to stretch that to "(can you say guilt? )" is simply you projecting what you think might have been in the driver's mind. I can't call someone a liar that is making a speculation as to motive, Chilly gave his own alternative speculation, and you go ahead and attack. My speculation is the hummer driver may have thrown a pass your way, and certainly had a place to take you, but found you unreceptive. Those situations can always be tense.

The thread became about you because you made a wild speculation about the motives of someone else, and freely stereotype others based on your own prejudices. You initiated the attack with your first post. Then you bent over backwards to expand Chilly's simple speculation into a "side". There was no "other side" in the conversation, just you trying to sidetrack your prejudiced statements.

It baffles me that you Delta Flyer continue to make attacks, claim others are upset, angry or shouting, blame others for getting off topic, demand others get back on topic, call flame-baiting, call close-minded and in general treat anyone that has a different prospective as though they aren't welcome here.

By every measure you made an *** out of yourself. None of your other side info about an acura driver, or Arnold, or aspertame or whatever you call "concessions" had any relevance.

A simple "yeah your right, I don't know what the guy was thinking, I may have projected my own prejudice, and thought I was being funny" would have been appropriate.

Nice job getting the thread closed, I hope a mod pm'd you about your conduct.

Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
Your last (and final) PM to me has been reported. There is no place for such.


I actually contemplated PMing a copy to Jason, He got a copy anyways.

Then you stoop to this last post.

Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
As far as the rude big pickup truck drivers go, some of that is at 6-7am a lot of them are on the road and driven by blue-collar and low-skilled people that are probably less concerned about how they drive and meeting deadlines. (not that there are well-heeled ones that do it too....)


This type of stereotyping is simply HATE. Apparently this type of HATE is fine and morally justified around here. Why is an excellent forum with access to hybrid and FE enthusiasm allowed to be smeared by such prejudism?

Well, I thought it was a lovely dance, with fancy footwork. I especially liked:

Now, the Honda & Acura product lines consist of is 16 models: Insight , S2000, Fit, Civic , Accord, CRV, Element, Pilot, Odyssey, Ridgeline, RL, TL, TSX, RSX, MDX, and RDX. Only Insight, Fit, Civic, Accord, TSX and RSX--6 models--get 30 or more MPG.

So, when you say that all of GM offers more 30+ mpg models than all of Honda, you're saying GM offer more than 6 cars.

Nissan's product line is 18 models, including Infiniti's 6.

Toyota offers 27, including Lexus' 8 and Scion's 3.

GM offers 59 models, including Pontiac: 8, Chevrolet: 20, Buick: 5, Saturn: 5, Cadillac: 9, GMC: 5, Hummer: 3, Saab: 4.

Out of 59 models, GM brags about offering more than 6 that get 30+ mpg. It sounded good in the context of the article, though.

According to The Auto Channel and my handy calculator, Fit is 2% of their YTD sales, Accord 24%, Civic 22%, Odyssey 12%, Pilot 10%, CRV 10%, Element 4%, Ridgeline 4%, RSX 1%, TL 5%, TSX 3%, RL 1%, MDX 3%, and all the others are less than 1% each. That means that 52% of all Hondas & Acuras sold in the last year have an EPA rating of 30mpg or higher.

What percentage of GM vehicles sold in the last year were rated for 30+ mpg? How many GM vehicles get 50+ mpg? Zero. 45+? Zero. 40+? Zero. The highest-mileage American car I could find was a 35mpg Pontiac.

I also liked:

No matter how much research you're doing, what matters is what you put on the road.

Would-be hypermiler

From the GM article: Then why the heck is GM so sue-happy over California's emisions standards? Also, I believe the Chevy Aveo is a Korean model brougt in to satisfy CAFE standards. Does anybody know if GM did any design on the Aveo at all?

Not just Super White...Super Duper White...

Is this thread actually getting back on topic? I thought we were about to get locked. Actually, I agree 100% with what Chilly and worthywads posted--and I am glad they posted it.

After the previous thread that got locked, I thought maybe I was getting out of line to prove my point--that Delta Flyer is predisposed to hate Hummer drivers. As badly as I wanted to continue the discussion, I let it slide.

history lesson

Now it appears that Delta Flyer wants to resurrect this discussion. He picks a fight, and he gets one. Then he complains how everybody "hates Delta Flyer". Delta Flyer, what did you expect?

This is the first forum that I have ever participated in. At times I may have come across as a bit rude in my posts and I do regret this. This is a learning process for me. At times I have poorly handled situations and I have watched others better handle similar situations. I do try to learn and I will admit when I am wrong. However, I am puzzled as to how to handle such delusional behavior.

All of you that are dredging up stuff from closed threads stop now or this thread will be closed as well.

This is a great thread topic and we are lucky enough to have a genuine (unofficial) GM guy giving us the inside scoop (in spite of taking a lot of crap from many of us including me). Thanks Martin!

It would be a shame to close the thread.

Someone please explain to me the TEN YEAR lag between the Prius debut (okay only in Japan)...how about the 7 year lag between the US Prius debut and ANYTHING even remotely resembling a full hybrid from GM?? And it is STILL not in the showroom or on the road for the public to experience. And the Saturn version of 'hybrid' is a start-stop system. Please, Toyota had those overseas several years ago...for actual people to drive! Not just press releases.

GM is so not in the hybrid/fuel-efficiency game. No matter what their press releases say, show me the hybrids! Show me where they applied ANY EV1 technology to fuel efficiency.

I'm sorry, GM has REALLY screwed themselves. Nothing like digging a hole with big SUV gas guzzlers, then burying yourself in that hole by crushing the ONE car that was brilliant. I don't see how I'll ever get over that one.

Cheers,

Curt.

PS I'd be just as disappointed in Toyota for crushing my Prius, telling me there ain't a market and the wait lists non-existent. It didn't happen that way, and some Rav 4 EVs are still running in private hands just fine. Does that mean they are leading the charge (pun intended) for EVs? I'd say so.

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.

Woo. In other news, our local community college has more B-minus or above students than Harvard.

Why take pride in clearing a bar that's set so low?

If I remember correctly EV / RV4s were in California the same time Toyota was introducing the NHW10 in Japan?

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.