I'm trying to decide whether it makes sense for me to get a Prius, and I think it comes down to the gas mileage I would get with it, vs. the mileage I would get with another small car, likely a Corolla.

I'll outline my assumptions first, the question comes last (sorry to be long-winded).

I own a 91 Corolla wagon with 210k miles. (Love it, wish they still made wagons...) Manual xmission, and I get ~33 mpg in town, slightly over 40 on the highway. In my commute now, I average 36-38 on mostly freeway, but with frequent congestion. (The road, not my nose...)

I suspect that's higher than most Corolla owners get. Partly that is probably due to the manual transmission, and partly to my driving habits (I get passed a lot).

I think the average mileage for the current Prius is ~48 mpg overall, which is "only" 10 mpg over what I get now. If I were to keep my Prius for 200k miles, like I have my Corolla, that should give me a savings of (200k/ 48) - (200k/ 37) ~= 1200 gallons. At *current* gas cost, that would be a savings of ~$3600. If I can also take the low emissions tax break (that may expire, though, right?) of $3500, the savings would be around $7000. Add that to the price of a Corolla, and it comes to just about the same as the price of a Prius. Of course, the price of gas could go up or down...

So my question: because I get higher than average mpg on my Corolla, am I likely to get higher than 48 mpg on a Prius? Or are all you Prius owners such careful drivers that you would also get 36-38 mpg on a Corolla? Or is this an impossible question to answer?

First, I think you need to look at the Scion series instead of the Corolla. The Scion has the same 1500 cc engine and the Scion xB was the leading alternative to the Prius when we bought ours:

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/payback.html

You should realize there is no 'manual transmission' for the Prius. If you are comparing apples-to-apples, use the automatic of the Corolla-Scion-Yaris models. Only the Scion and Yaris have the same 1500 cc engine block. But if you are happy with the manual transmission, by all means, realize there is a performance impact. There are two manual transmission hybrids, the Honda Civic Hybrid and Honda Insight but both are either out of or announced to be going out of manufacture.

There is a camp that believes driving technique and non-hybrid technologies can achieve hybrid efficiency. I wish them well but I have a hybrid electric and am interested in the whole package. Still the folks at CleanMPG.com have a growing wealth of knowledge about non-hybrid driving techniques and technology.

For me, there are unique aspects of the Prius hybrid-electric that I enjoy investigating:

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_tt.html
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_RevC.html

Understand that I'm driving a "Prius I", an NHW11 model, not the "Prius II", an NHW20. I've only had it for seven months so my MPG includes the 'learning curve.' I did study how to achieve better Prius driving performance and wrote a FAQ to share the techniques I know that work. For the FAQ and details backing that FAQ:

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/prius-faq.6645.html
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/

There are more advanced Prius driving techniques but without proper instrumentation, I'm hesitant to recommend them. I like techniques that have reproducable results.

So do you have any other questions?

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Thanks--the reason that I'm comparing a manual transmission Corolla with a non-manual Prius is that those are my choices for a new car. I suppose I could get an automatic Corolla, but frankly the only advantage is that it would be easier to handle a coffee mug while I'm driving :-).

(You mentioned a couple other choices, including a Scion. I'll have to have a look, I hadn't thought of the Scion. I do enjoy the Corolla Wagon when it comes to picking things up at Lowes or Home Depot, but that doesn't seem to be a possibility, since Toyota is AFAIK not making wagons any more.)

I just filled our 2001 Prizm auto(Corolla rebadged) and 2006 Prius.We drive them the same-heavy,pure city driving with the AC blasting all the time(90 here). The Prizm got 23mpg, the Prius got 45.8.We(wife and son) don't drive to get good mpg.
Your 91 sw might be lighter than the current corolla,and it certainly has a smaller,less powerful motor.The current Corolla probably wouldn't get you better mpg than what you get now.
I would bet you would get at least 15 mpg better with the Prius vs a manual trans Corolla. We average 44 mpg with no effort-you would get 50+ easily.Luck,Charlie

Bob I understand why it seems like you need to compare a Prius to an auto tranny Corolla, it is an apples to apples comparison. What you don't seem to understand is that it is not the Corolla's fault that the Prius is only available in a "auto" or "CVT" but not in a manual. What is important is what the end purchaser would actually buy. If an auto style transmission is a requirement of the purchaser or the purchaser's spouse then you should compare auto to auto (or CVT). However if the purchaser prefers a manual (or at least does not care) then a comparison between a Prius and a MT Corrolla is perfecly valid.

An automatic transmission is an option that costs over $1k in most gas-only cars not counting the MPG impact. As you pointed out, it is an option in the Corolla and not the Prius' fault that it doesn't have an MT version.

I went back and reread my posting and tried to understand how I might have posted a better reply. His reply suggested he hadn't considered the Scion xB.

The Scion xB comes with a manual transmission standard as well as an optional automatic and a lot of interior space. With a 1500 cc engine, the Scion xB gets good MPG although this is what I found from the Scion specifications PDF:

30/33 - Manual
30/34 - Automatic (** from the Scion specification PDF file **)

IMHO, the Scon would be an excellent comparison vehicle and the closest in space to the wagon he'd mentioned. In my own case, I used an equivalently equipped Scion xB with an automatic when I was shopping for and bought our 03 Prius, matching feature-to-feature:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/payback.html

My MPG pay-off comparison to a Scion xB loaded with the same features as the used Prius brought the hybrid premium down to $824. After seven months, it looks like we're on track to pay off the premium in less than three years. I'll do an accounting update in October to detail the one year payback. One of my mental experiments is a Prius drive train in a Scion xB body.

I don't know much about the Honda vehicle lines and have always assumed Honda advocates would bring the facts and data for their models. I suspect there is a Honda equivalent to the Scion xB and that might be an excellent alternative. Perhaps the Accord hybrid experience will lead to more hybrid options in the smaller vehicle options.

Bob Wilson

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom:

Automatic, stock, project car.

My other 1500 cc car:

Automatic, stock, backup car.
Free speech, dialog and knowledge thrives without the poison of SPAM.

Get the Prius, you won't ever regret it. Neither will your family and friends...or anyone who likes and breathes clean air.

Now if it's strictly gas mileage...that's a slippery slope. I say don't get a Prius if that is ALL you are concerned about.

Use less, pollute less...the rest is a bonus.

Cheers,
Curt.

'04 Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear warn system, compass mirror, EV mode button, 8" subwoofer in right rear cubby & 6" subs under seats, power lumbar in the front seats, Coastaletech hitch w/ Aspen bike/snowboard rack. iPod2car, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, and DVD video, solid 47 MPG @ 70000 miles.

Are you referring to the federal income tax credit? It's $3150, not $3500, and to qualify you will need to take delivery of the new Prius by September 30. The credit will be half of that amount for the six months after September 30. And be sure that your federal income tax situation will be such that you will benefit from the credit.

Well, you can check the mpg database on this Web site to see what people are actually getting. I can tell you that I live at the top of rather steep hills. Because the Prius is a heavy car, with its massive hybrid battery that it hauls everywhere it goes, having to climb steep hills affects mpg very noticeably. (Then too, my car has only 2400 miles on it so far, and mpg isn't at its best early in the life of any car.)

I agree with finman that you should consider emissions as well. We don't get paid for reducing emissions like we do for reducing gasoline use, but we can all feel better and breathe better when we do it. The Prius is a very clean-operating car.

highroute -
2006 Barcelona Red Metallic

The Prius is a mid-sized car and significantly larger than a Corolla. There's no apples-to-apples comparison for Prius, like a Civic, Escape, or Highlander.

You'll probably get more like 50MPG, over the lifetime of the car. If you look at Prius owners in the database, with the most mileage, they average over 50MPG.

McSwell,
A very significant part of your analysis hinges on the cost of gas in the coming years. You state it may go up or down. With the possible exception of a slight drop this winter, gas prices are headed up, up, up. By the time you get your new vehicle up to 200,000 miles in, say, 6 or 7 years, a gallon of gas will be $6-8 if not more.

Not even considering instabilities in the oil market (future Katrinas, Iran, etc.), fossil fuels are a finite resource and at some point--5-10 years, many geologists state--peak oil will occur. Google peak oil for more info or look at the Hirsch report:

http://www.acus.org/docs/051007-Hirs...Production.pdf

As to my MPG, I'm a careful driver and in my hilly area, I'm averaging 53 in warmer temp. and 48 in winter.

Good luck!