The time has come to retire my wife's forester after 180,000 miles with a lifetime FE of 27.2 MPG. I look forward to adding another hybrid to my signature, and do so with the knowlege that my wife has become a "mild" hypermiler (like me) in the TCH, and shares my views regarding the environment and efficiency.

So, I invite HiHy and FEH/MMH owners to duke it out here and bring out the best/worst in your picks. I look forward to reading the comments.

The Profile:
Location is Western Washington, coastal climate, avg temps 37-44 winter, 66-82 summer. Work communte is four days, 28 miles one-way in moderate hills. Four Wheel drive as we live in Cascade foothills with light snow common in the winter. County plows are late as our rural road has a low priority. Other driving is approximatly 15% of commute per month and includes errands that involve occasional building materials, bulky objects and boxes. Freeway driving is minimal - over 85% of all driving is on two or four lane state highways or rural two lane roads.

OK, shake hands now and retire to your corners.

Round One:?

It is the ignorant among us that will eventually destroy us all.

OK I'll bite

Unless you need the slightly larger size of the toy and the higher towing rating then the better fuel economy of the FEH makes more sense. You also may qualify for the tax break too which will lower your initial cost some.

IMO the biggest reason to buy the FEH or MMH is that you will be supporting good old Americans and in these days we ALL need to do more IMO. You will also be using a little less oil which is mostly imported so you will be supporting those who dislike a bit less also. Better fuel economy means LOWER emissions too.

Often these things are over looked and yet IMO they are very important.

Most feel that the FEH MMH are about the best built hybrid SUV's available. They have been tested in taxi fleets in San Fransisco and New York and are holding up very well all the while offering the lowest operating costs. 150-200,000 miles are easy to achieve.

Go with what YOU need. But try to keep your dollars at home as this will help folks here more than any other way.

You might look into insurance costs too. In my experience imported cars cost more as their parts are more money.

As a FEH owner, I'll say that while the size and shape of a small SUV, it is really just a large car with questionable towing capacity.

It handles the tasks I've given it fairly well: a grocery getter, chauffeuring my infant son, and handling the snowiest winter Michigan has had in years.

The HiHy is significantly larger and if need that size, it is the only choice.

I have a hard time gaging the cost, I have a fleet code for getting the fleet-only options and family discount at Ford. For me, the HiHy wasn't even in the ballpark.

Ouch. The 1000# limit is pretty severe for a vehicle that is supposed to be an SUV. That makes the HiHy a giant in this area with a 3500# limit and good reviews on towing.

Not a deal breaker, but it would be nice to have the capability. Round 1 to the HiHY - 10/9.

Round 2? Something importatnt to my wife -- some AWD/4WD vehicles don't turn very tight. Her Subaru has a very tight turning radius of 19 feet. I could not find data on this in the FEH or HiHy brochures. Anybody know what they can do?

It is the ignorant among us that will eventually destroy us all.

Turning radius is for the FEH is 18.3'.

http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research....Selection=true

That was a selling point for my wife who is used to a Saturn Ion.

The Highlander comes in at an 19.5'.

http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research....Selection=true

My opinion, the smaller size and tighter radius of the FEH make it better in parking lot maneuvers. The difference between it and the Ford Edge (closer in size to the Highlander, which I haven't driven) are more pronounced than the numbers would make it seem.

I've driven over 1,000 miles in a 2008 non-hybrid Highlander as a rental car, and we own an MMH. This will end up being a big post...

The Highlander first:
The rental car company didn't have the compact car we ordered, so I jumped at the chance to get the Hi since the '08s brand new at the time (in fact, this one had 20 miles on the odometer when I drove off the lot), and we were thinking about buying a hybrid SUV.

Since it was obviously not a hybrid, I focused on things like ride and interior space on my "extended test drive". I was really impressed with the ride--it was very smooth on some of the bumpy back roads of New England. It felt very big in parking lots, but I don't have much experience driving SUVs. It didn't feel so large that I would have ruled out buying one.

It was huge inside, but the second row seats had an opening between them when folded which I thought would probably collect loose stuff when loaded with camping gear. The third row seat was a joke unless you have kids, in which case it would definitely come in handy. The seats were comfortable, even after sitting in them all day.

Over the trip, I calculated mileage for the second two (of 3) tanks. The first tank was 25.5mpg averaging 50mph on back roads and the second was 23.5mpg with more interstate driving (65mph) so an overall average of 24.5mpg. I thought this was really good for a brand new, non-hybrid SUV. I used mild hypermile techniques but no FAS or drafting.

We bought a Mariner about a month after the New England trip. The big reasons were: cost, mileage and smaller size. It was not possible to find a HiHy that wasn't fully loaded and over $40k, and there was no federal tax credit. We got the Mariner on X-plan pricing loaded for ~$31k (look into this if you work for a large company) and we got the full federal tax credit. The other clincher was that we don't need a V6 and a large car so the Mariner was a better fit for our kidless lifestyle, and I would rather have a car I can get 35mpg vs. 30mpg over the long haul.

Now thoughts on the Mariner:
I wasn't very interested in the FEH/MMH at first, but my wife wanted us to test drive it (among other non-hybrid mini SUVs). The test drive warmed me up to the car, but after 5 months I really like it. There were a few annoyances at first like the windshield wiper controls and the key fob, but I've gotten used to them by now and don't care.

The ride is smooth, (although not quite as smooth as the Hi) and it is a very comfortable highway cruiser. The only caveat is the ride is sometimes choppy on concrete highways with expansion cracks. There is plenty of room for my wife and I plus two passengers which was what we were looking for. Folding down the seats is a three step process, but there is lots of room and I like the flat fold seats. The front seats are very comfortable, although I would again give a slight nod to the Hi for all day drives.

Mileage-wise, our average number isn't quite as high as I would like, but it's had a "hard" life so far. The first 3,000 miles were all highway in 0 degree temps and I had to drive a lot faster than I would like. It is also my wife's car, and because she works from home, it sees lots of short trips to and from the store without ever warming up. On my commutes, I've managed 38mpg (per computer) and I can get to the mountians and back at 35mpg (per tank calculation) so the potential is there for sure. I expect the mileage to rise quite a bit over the summer.

Bottom line: they are both great cars. If you have the need for a larger car, and don't mind the $40k+ price, get the Highlander. If you don't NEED a larger car, I would get the FEH/MMH--you won't be sorry. BTW, the 2009 versions will have a slightly larger engine with variable valve timing which should boost power and mileage. If you don't need a car right away, that might be worth the wait.

Edit: Regarding the AWD since I didn't mention it and you asked about it. I've done lots of snow driving and between the winter road trip and my ski trips and the Mariner has done great. One thing that I like (vs my Outback) is the FWD bias. With the Subaru, I had to be cautious at times powering through corners because the back end would snap out (fun in a parking lot, not fun in traffic). The Mariner tracks very well in the corners (when it's probably not using the rear wheels much) but I've never had any slippage issues.

Commuter car, grocery getter, and summer road tripper--average 10k miles per year.


Winter road trips and ski trips, bad weather commuter and my wife's "daily" driver--expected average 4k miles per year.

$10K difference is a lot -- I had no idea it was that much.

Interesting that I am hearing lots of cheerleaders for the FEH, but have no posts from the HiHy people.

Rounds 2 & 3 to the FEH/MMH, score 29/28 for the Ford Product.

I would be interested in knowing about the little things like rattles, squeaks, service annoyances, controls placement and other things that are typically discovered only after purchasing. I would also like to know the subtle variances in the FEH/MMH packages, ,,, and are they worth it. The Highlander has only a few trim variations, so its easier to sort them out.

It is the ignorant among us that will eventually destroy us all.

We picked up our FEH in August and no squeaks or rattles, but we only have 4.5k on the odometer so far.

My personal gripe is the "courtesy wipe". If you spray the windshield washer, the wiper blades clear your view and then wipe once more about 5 seconds later. The last wipe is never necessary and just makes that annoying screeching sound as the blade goes over dry glass.

I also dislike the fact that the radio is customized to the dash, preventing me from installing a better after market unit.

My other gripe is the lack of memory on the power seat. Ford puts this on so many other vehicles, I can't imagine it costs very much or would cut into the sales of higher end models.

As for packages...

Radio options you need the high end radio with navigation if you want the screen showing you power flowing to and from your battery. At $2700, I didn't think it was worth it. I did find the $700 "audiophile" upgrade to be substantial and your best option if you want to plug in an iPod and have good power output given the inability to put in an after market radio.

Seats, cloth or leather. You must take leather if you want the heated seats (which work very well!)

Chrome package is just silly IMHO, but the dealers in Detroit order them almost as a reflex.

I like the "premium" package as it includes the heated seats and a few other goodies. If you're inclined to get leather seats, I'd just get the premium package.

The remote start is ridiculously priced as it is just a $99 Code Alarm unit. However, after having to have my remote starter removed every time I take my Saturn in with an error code, it wasn't quite as bad.

If you want day-time running lights you'll have to provide a fleet code.

Here are my "nits", some of which I mentioned above. They are all minor things and don't mind them (but I do notice them).

The wipers are on the turn signal stalk where you twist to turn them on, and there is no "single wipe" by pulling the lever, you need to twist and twist back. This annoyed me greatly at first but now I have it dialed--although I occasionally turn on the headlights on the HCH when I mean to wipe because it's the same motion. Anyone coming from a Japanese or European car will find this annoying--I don't know why Ford keeps doing this.

The sun roof doesn't have an automatic open/close with one button--you have to hold the button all the way through the process. On the positve side, you can open it partially which you can't usually when it's automatic.

The automatic opening rear glass from the key fob is awesome, but you will get your fingers dirty closing it whereas the heavier, pricier HiHy Limited has a power gate that you never need to touch.

Folding the seats flat is a three step procedure. Take the head rests off, lift the cusion and then fold. The Hi was a one step as I recall.

The lock and unlock buttons on the fob are identical in feel and location so I have to look at the key to unlock. Eventually I will remember which side locks and which side unlocks. Also, when you unlock, the turn signals don't flash. This is probably a safety feature of some sort, but I can't tell when I'm actually unlocking unless I'm close enough to hear it. However, in the dark, the headlights will light up when you unlock--weird.

I have one rattle in the passenger side door which I will have them look at when I have the first oil change done.

The gas tank doesn't lock. I'm not too worried about syphoners, but if any of my friends knew about this, I could see them pouring extra gas into the tank just to screw with me. You could always buy an old school locking gas cap if you were worried.

I never been in an FEH, but one difference I know of is that the MMH has a keypad on the driver's door with a combination and the FEH doesn't. This ROCKS! You will never lock your keys in the car (unless you want to which I sometimes do so I don't need to carry them) and my passengers can get in the car on ski trips without me needing to give them the key.

Hopefully this doesn't come across too negative because other than the HCH (which is perfect ), I've got a similar list of nits about every car I've ever owned.

Commuter car, grocery getter, and summer road tripper--average 10k miles per year.


Winter road trips and ski trips, bad weather commuter and my wife's "daily" driver--expected average 4k miles per year.

All Ford tanks have an anti-syphon kink built-in. It works extremely well, but thieves were pissed at my friend because of it and simply punctured the tank and let the gas go everywhere.

This is (or at least was) available on all Ford vehicles as a dealer installed option. I don't think my parents have taken the keys out of the car in years.