E85 Analysis / Perspective - GreenHybrid

TXVTX · #1 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007, 08:11 AM

It occurred to me this morning that Toyota must have a presence in Brazil and if so they may just produce a hybrid there. If so, then Toyota has a Camry that would run on E85 as well. To my disappointment, no such luck.

Here is the link for Toyota Brazil: http://www.toyota.com.br/showroom/camry/index.html

I then did further research looking for the possibility of E85 Retrofit kits. While some exist, none were found for the Camry Hybrid. What I did stumble across was the below brief discussing the results of testing a Toyota Prius with E85 and no retrofit kit (aka the Creed Project from Minnesota State University).
http://www.greenenergynetwork.com/me.../prius-e85.PDF

Digging deeper regarding Brazil and Toyota I then found this Brazil magazine (in English) that talks to the future of Toyota and E85 capabilities in the US market. http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/6903/53/
Here is a quote:

Quote:

Press said Toyota is strongly considering introducing a flex-fuel vehicle program in the U.S. "We're already developing vehicles that can operate in ethanol-rich Brazil and we're optimistic that we can offer similar vehicles to American consumers."

My view is I personally would like the option of using E85 fuel as I travel quite a bit and want that flexibility. Additionally the environmental responsibility is a strong motivator.

I now open this thread for further dialog.

nash · #2 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007, 08:34 AM

It was interesting that the Prius started and ran reasonably well on E85, and even gained some torque. However, I was rather dismayed by the dramatic drop in fuel economy they encountered!

The use of ethanol caused the fuel system to adapt the long term fuel trim by an increase of 32.81%!

n8kwx · #3 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007, 01:12 PM

It's my understanding that E85 compatibility is simply updating the fuel system components with ethanol resistant parts. And updating the ECU programming to work with the different burn characteristics of ethanol. Around $100 per vehicle according to the big 2.5.

But before you consider it environmentally friendly, do some research on ethanol.

In the US:

Ethanol is mostly made with corn. Planted with petrochemical based fertilizers and tended with diesel fueled tractors. Trucked to market with fuel, etc.

Various studies have shown ethanol to be 80 - 120% (or so) efficient. Which would displace only 20% of oil, or "cost" 20 us 20% more oil!

In Brazil:

Ethanol is made with a lot of sugar cane, which is more efficient than corn. But... Brazil has slashed and burned a lot of forest to create their farmland.

The other issue, which I haven't seen much talk about, is WATER usage. Water is already problematic in this country. Depleting aquifers, damming rivers, etc.

Personally, I'm of the belief that improving fuel economy is the easiest way to reduce oil usage.

Bigsk8r · #4 (**permalink**) 04-07-2007, 09:03 PM

Talk about the law of unintended consequences... read up on this... a lot.

If after reading many articles and reviewing data from both sides of the environmental aisle you still think ethanol is great, go for it. The production and distribution problems associated with E85 and Hydrogen fuel cells prevent either of those from being realistic solutions for many, many years.

Qslugs · #5 (**permalink**) 04-08-2007, 07:33 PM

Isn't fuel super cheap down there as well?

Droid13 · #6 (**permalink**) 04-09-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n8kwx

It's my understanding that E85 compatibility is simply updating the fuel system components with ethanol resistant parts. And updating the ECU programming to work with the different burn characteristics of ethanol. Around $100 per vehicle according to the big 2.5.

But before you consider it environmentally friendly, do some research on ethanol.

In the US:

Ethanol is mostly made with corn. Planted with petrochemical based fertilizers and tended with diesel fueled tractors. Trucked to market with fuel, etc.

Various studies have shown ethanol to be 80 - 120% (or so) efficient. Which would displace only 20% of oil, or "cost" 20 us 20% more oil!

In Brazil:

Ethanol is made with a lot of sugar cane, which is more efficient than corn. But... Brazil has slashed and burned a lot of forest to create their farmland.

The other issue, which I haven't seen much talk about, is WATER usage. Water is already problematic in this country. Depleting aquifers, damming rivers, etc.

Personally, I'm of the belief that improving fuel economy is the easiest way to reduce oil usage.

I agree, corn ethanol requires so much fossil fuel to produce, it really offers no environmental advantages.

mikieboyblue · #7 (**permalink**) 04-09-2007, 12:34 PM

Honestly, I say an immediate renewable fuel is bio-diesel/e-diesel. The energy yield is quite high and it can be created quick easily without fossil fuel use. We just have to work on cleaning up the emissions a little and I really think all the money spent on ethanol could solve that problem real quick.

Just MHO.

Of course, what we really need is "Mr. Fusion" from back to the future! Just dump in your trash and bam!

Mike

livvie · #8 (**permalink**) 04-10-2007, 11:21 AM

There isn't anything good about ethanol... how it became known as a "green" fuel is beyond me. Oh wait, I forgot the sheep effect.