German test pits diesel MB against Lexus rx400h
#1
08-24-2005, 10:17 AM
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,430
German test pits diesel MB against Lexus rx400h
http://motoring.reuters.co.uk/reuters/vocmain.jsp?lnk=101&id=1306
Those Euro guys - always dissing the 'Brids !!! 
The German magazine Auto Bild has conducted a 5,200 km test across the USA comparing the fuel consumption of diesel and hybrid off-roaders.
The Mercedes ML 320 CDI was compared with the Lexus RX 400h and, over the course of the run, the Mercedes was 11% more fuel efficient at 31.0 mpg compared to 27.7 mpg for the Lexus. In a way, this is not surprising, as a hybrid is very efficient around town, but will give almost no fuel saving at high speed (when the electric motors do not operate). More surprisingly, the testers said that the hybrid was only 1.7% more efficient around town at 24.56 mpg compared to 24.12 mpg. It is clear that, to get the benefit of the electric motors, drivers must be as smooth as possible: sudden prods on the throttle mean the petrol engine cuts in instead of the electric motors.
Of course, hybrids are mainly sold in the USA, where diesel cars are virtually non-existent. In Europe the economy gains are less obvious.
Of course, hybrids are mainly sold in the USA, where diesel cars are virtually non-existent. In Europe the economy gains are less obvious.
#2
08-24-2005, 10:29 AM
Re: German test pits diesel MB against Lexus rx400h
The RX is not exactly a gas sipper, it's all about performance, so I wouldn't expect it to do so well against a diesel. If they atkinsonized it then we might see something comparable because the engine efficiencies would start to get closer.
#3
08-24-2005, 10:33 AM
Re: German test pits diesel MB against Lexus rx400h
Hi Lars-ss:
___Except they were not using the RXh’s capabilities to its maximum guaranteed. Around town, the RXh is worth > 50 mpg in some cases. Given MB doesn’t even manufacture a hybrid, you know those MB pilots hadn’t a clue as to what they were doing
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Except they were not using the RXh’s capabilities to its maximum guaranteed. Around town, the RXh is worth > 50 mpg in some cases. Given MB doesn’t even manufacture a hybrid, you know those MB pilots hadn’t a clue as to what they were doing
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#4
08-24-2005, 06:58 PM
Re: German test pits diesel MB against Lexus rx400h
I'm not sure about the 50 mpg around town for the RXH - using hypermiling techniques I'd say the MB could best that.
I think the test was fair and square, and simply underlines that powerhybrdis don't get good mileage, period. They get good power at normal mileage, but that's it. Diesels on the other hand get good mileage, but are dirtier. At least RHx owners can feel good about their cars being clean, even if they do burn loads of fuel.
When I saw the headline for the article (elsewhere) my guess was indeed that the diesel MB woudl outperform the RXH in terms of mileage.
I think the test was fair and square, and simply underlines that powerhybrdis don't get good mileage, period. They get good power at normal mileage, but that's it. Diesels on the other hand get good mileage, but are dirtier. At least RHx owners can feel good about their cars being clean, even if they do burn loads of fuel.
When I saw the headline for the article (elsewhere) my guess was indeed that the diesel MB woudl outperform the RXH in terms of mileage.
#5
08-25-2005, 03:25 PM
Re: German test pits diesel MB against Lexus rx400h
Hi MGBGT:
___Let us look at the performance:
Mercedes ML 320 CDI 0 - 62: 8.6 seconds
Lexus RXh 0 - 60: 7.2 seconds
___Then the FE:
Mercedes ML 320 CDI:
EC Combined: 24.0 mpg US gallons
EC Extra Urban: 29.42 mpg US gallons
EC Urban: 18.25 mpg US gallons
Lexus RX 400h:
EPA Combined: 29 mpg US gallons
EPA City: 31 mpg US gallons
EPA Highway: 27 mpg US gallons
___The last time I looked, the EU combined specs were similar to the EPA’s combined. As an example, the Prius II has the following in both US EPA and EU’s EU4 mileage specs.
EPA City/Highway combined: 55.5 mpg US gallons
vs.
EU Combined: 54.7 mpg US gallons
___So how does the ML CDI driven by “the testers” (MB “testers” maybe) receive 31 mpg over the entire 5,200 Km when its rated at just 24.0 mpg per the EU combined and the Lexus only receive 27.7 mpg US when it rated for 29 mpg per the EPA combined?
___Secondly, comparing an ultra clean Hybrid with higher city then highway to a non-US compliant diesel with a higher highway then city in a mostly highway test proves what?
___Lets look at those city numbers that “the tester’s” received again …
24.56 mpg for the RXh vs. 24.12 mpg for the ML320. The RXh is rated far higher then that per the EPA City (24.56 mpg received vs. 31 mpg estimated). The MB ML320 CDI is rated far lower then this in the EU’s Urban testing (24.12 mpg actual vs. 18.25 mpg US estimated per the EU Urban cycle)?
___Sounds a bit fishy that a lower performance, far worse emissions, diesel SUV is achieving 32% better FE then the EU Urban numbers suggest and the higher performance, far cleaner hybrid is receiving just 79% of the EPA city expected … I know there are some apples to orange comparisons here but some of this can be correlated given the Prius numbers posted above.
___This goes along with another conclusion I have come to understand in regards to a straight diesel vs. hybrid. Name a single mass-produced 0 - 60 in 10.5 second or less diesel available anywhere on the planet that has achieved > 109 mpg sustained for an entire tank? I know of 1 Insight and 1 Prius that have done exactly that!
___Finally, a late model diesel is supposedly ~ 3 - 5% more efficient then the Prius I or II’s Atkinsonized ICE but in the real world, I am not seeing any FE advantage? This includes just straight highway FE where the diesel should really own the road so to speak. A quick look at the FE threads over at WVortex or TDI club should be all you need to confirm by comparison to what the members here are receiving in their Insight’s, HCH’s, and Prius II’s on a daily basis? Not that I would love to own a TSX based Accord CDTi over my K24 equipped PZEV non-hybrid Accord but the diesel’s underperforming FE numbers vs. the hybrids speak for themselves …
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Let us look at the performance:
Mercedes ML 320 CDI 0 - 62: 8.6 seconds
Lexus RXh 0 - 60: 7.2 seconds
___Then the FE:
Mercedes ML 320 CDI:
EC Combined: 24.0 mpg US gallons
EC Extra Urban: 29.42 mpg US gallons
EC Urban: 18.25 mpg US gallons
Lexus RX 400h:
EPA Combined: 29 mpg US gallons
EPA City: 31 mpg US gallons
EPA Highway: 27 mpg US gallons
___The last time I looked, the EU combined specs were similar to the EPA’s combined. As an example, the Prius II has the following in both US EPA and EU’s EU4 mileage specs.
EPA City/Highway combined: 55.5 mpg US gallons
vs.
EU Combined: 54.7 mpg US gallons
___So how does the ML CDI driven by “the testers” (MB “testers” maybe
) receive 31 mpg over the entire 5,200 Km when its rated at just 24.0 mpg per the EU combined and the Lexus only receive 27.7 mpg US when it rated for 29 mpg per the EPA combined?___Secondly, comparing an ultra clean Hybrid with higher city then highway to a non-US compliant diesel with a higher highway then city in a mostly highway test proves what?
___Lets look at those city numbers that “the tester’s” received again …
24.56 mpg for the RXh vs. 24.12 mpg for the ML320. The RXh is rated far higher then that per the EPA City (24.56 mpg received vs. 31 mpg estimated). The MB ML320 CDI is rated far lower then this in the EU’s Urban testing (24.12 mpg actual vs. 18.25 mpg US estimated per the EU Urban cycle)?
___Sounds a bit fishy that a lower performance, far worse emissions, diesel SUV is achieving 32% better FE then the EU Urban numbers suggest and the higher performance, far cleaner hybrid is receiving just 79% of the EPA city expected … I know there are some apples to orange comparisons here but some of this can be correlated given the Prius numbers posted above.
___This goes along with another conclusion I have come to understand in regards to a straight diesel vs. hybrid. Name a single mass-produced 0 - 60 in 10.5 second or less diesel available anywhere on the planet that has achieved > 109 mpg sustained for an entire tank? I know of 1 Insight and 1 Prius that have done exactly that!
___Finally, a late model diesel is supposedly ~ 3 - 5% more efficient then the Prius I or II’s Atkinsonized ICE but in the real world, I am not seeing any FE advantage? This includes just straight highway FE where the diesel should really own the road so to speak. A quick look at the FE threads over at WVortex or TDI club should be all you need to confirm by comparison to what the members here are receiving in their Insight’s, HCH’s, and Prius II’s on a daily basis? Not that I would love to own a TSX based Accord CDTi over my K24 equipped PZEV non-hybrid Accord but the diesel’s underperforming FE numbers vs. the hybrids speak for themselves …
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#6
08-26-2005, 07:49 AM
Re: German test pits diesel MB against Lexus rx400h
Is it fair comparison ML 320 CDI vs RX400h?
It looks apple to orange.
I believe it should be ML 350 vs RX400h, apple to apple.
ML 320 CDI ... Diesel 165ps... 8.6sec(0-100km/h)
ML 350 ......... Gas 200ps ..... 8.4sec(0-100km/h)
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/...sse_050817.pdf
ML 350 uses 20% more gas.
Ken@Japan
It looks apple to orange.
I believe it should be ML 350 vs RX400h, apple to apple.
ML 320 CDI ... Diesel 165ps... 8.6sec(0-100km/h)
ML 350 ......... Gas 200ps ..... 8.4sec(0-100km/h)
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/...sse_050817.pdf
ML 350 uses 20% more gas.
Ken@Japan
Last edited by ken1784; 08-26-2005 at 07:55 AM.
Thread
Topic Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Curated Content Editor
Journalism & The Media
0
12-13-2012 05:30 PM
carbnjunkie
Journalism & The Media
4
04-27-2007 10:32 PM
