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I see this was started back in August, but is the Honda civic a real hybrid , or what about the Insight ? can either of them run on just electric ? NO , I work as a bus mechanic , and the other day I was ,had a class on a diesel hybrid school bus , you have to plug it in at night , and the diesel engine never shuts off. not even at stops. It does recharge the hybrid battery while braking , the electric motor just assists the diesel from a full stop . Hybrids are a combination of internal combustion and electric motors. While Toyota and Ford s are able to run on electric up to 10 to 15 does that make them any more of a hybrid ? more expense , yes better mpgs yes , but still a combination of electric and gas ... a hybrid. Kipper
I see this was started back in August, but is the Honda civic a real hybrid , or what about the Insight ?
The engine crank shaft and the motor on the Honda IMA system are connected together.
The crank shaft has to spin when the vehicle moves even in a fuel-cut mode. http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/IMA/ima03/
Honda claims "The motor alone powers the vehicle" on "Low-speed cruising".
But, the motor has to drive the vehicle and the crank shaft.
I think it's very wasteful solution.
The engine crank shaft and the motor on the Honda IMA system are connected together.
The crank shaft has to spin when the vehicle moves even in a fuel-cut mode. http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/IMA/ima03/
Honda claims "The motor alone powers the vehicle" on "Low-speed cruising".
But, the motor has to drive the vehicle and the crank shaft.
I think it's very wasteful solution.
Ken@Japan
It may be a wasteful solution to have to turn the ICE when only running on electric power, but it is a rather simple solution. It may be less efficient in stop and go "city" driving than a Toyota/Ford type system, but is more efficient on a highway where the electric motor/planetary gear set transmission is less efficient than a conventional transmission. Lower cost and works great, versus higher cost and works even better. Both IMA and HSD systems are great. I love my Camry Hybrid, but appreciate how wonderful the much simpler Honda IMA system works.
It may be less efficient in stop and go "city" driving than a Toyota/Ford type system, but is more efficient on a highway where the electric motor/planetary gear set transmission is less efficient than a conventional transmission.
Then, why does the EPA highway mileage by the less efficient Toyota Prius record as same as the more efficient Honda Civic Hybrid, 45 mpg?
And, why is the lower cost compact Honda Civic Hybrid's MSRP ($23,650) is higher than the higher cost midsize Toyota Prius's MSRP ($22,000)?
I was researching a story on hypermilers, and came across this fine website. Let me add these points to the "foreign car" discussion:
American automakers employ about 267,000 people, 29% of whom work in the USA. Foreign automakers employ about 103,000 people, with about 9% working here in the U.S.
American automakers run 39 plants here, foreign automakers operate 11 plants in the U.S.
In model year 2007, 78% of American automakers cars was domestic content.
In model year 2007, 31% of foreign automakers cars was domestic (U.S.) content.
Specifically, GM had 80% domestic content in 2007, while Toyota had 42%. VW had 4% domestic content, and Honda had 52%. Hyundai had 10%, Ford had 81%. Chrysler had 74%
We all have a choice. Support our American economy, or not. In today's wacky, topsy-turvy world, I encourage all to support American industry.
I happen to run two successful companies, both in the automotive related field. We will not sell anything that is made by a foreign owned company, or is not made in the USA, of at least 75% domestic content.
According to Toyota's website, 55.1 of their vehicles sold here were assembled in their three U.S. plants. (53.7% in MY 2006) However, the content of those vehicles was only 42% sourced in the U.S. The issue remains that the manufacturing profits go to Japan. Foreign automakers have less than 1/3 the engineering & design jobs here than domestic automakers have. It would be good if Toyota; et al, moved all their white collar jobs to the U.S., and moved their headquarters here so they could be listed on our American stock exchanges.
Don't mean to hijack this excellent thread, but I believe American engineers and workers can indeed produce a product equal or superior to any foreign manufacturer. I live here, make my money here, and want my kids to have productive careers here in America.
Then, why does the EPA highway mileage by the less efficient Toyota Prius record as same as the more efficient Honda Civic Hybrid, 45 mpg?
And, why is the lower cost compact Honda Civic Hybrid's MSRP ($23,650) is higher than the higher cost midsize Toyota Prius's MSRP ($22,000)?
Yes, the Civic Hybrid is a bit more expensive than the Prius, but that could be for any number of non-hybrid related reasons, including standard features or company profits. My point was that the Prius gets much better city milage than the Civic (48 Prius/40 Civic), or compared to its own highway milage, where the Civic gets better highway (45 for both Prius and Civic), more like a non-hybrid would expect (higher highway than city).
The HSD (Prius) system does better city than highway, and the IMA (Civic) is better suited for highway than city. Part of the Prius better city milage is due to it being almost 500 pounds lighter, and part may be due to power differences. The HSD is better able to manage the ICE/electric motor(s) mix, and better integration of the battery, but at a cost of added system complexity (more complexity in the electronics) and somewhat less efficiency in the "transmission" system. The HSD transmission is basically current flowing from one motor to the other, and is less than 90 efficient, where a conventional mechanical transmission is closer to 95% efficient. At constant highway speeds, the IMA allows the engine to drive the wheels more directly and efficiently (the motor is virtually bypassed), where the HSD is still using the motors, and losing a bit of efficiency doing so, but not gaining much ICE efficiency as is done in the city cycle.
Bottom line (for me) regarding the IMA is that it is a pretty simple modification to a conventional drivetrain which works very effectively for small cars (but less effectively scaleable to larger vehicles like the HSD is).
The HSD (Prius) system does better city than highway, and the IMA (Civic) is better suited for highway than city. Part of the Prius better city milage is due to it being almost 500 pounds lighter, and part may be due to power differences.
Your opinion does not reflect real numbers.
Prius(2932lbs) is heavier than Civic Hybrid(2877lbs).
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan_in_tempe
The HSD is better able to manage the ICE/electric motor(s) mix, and better integration of the battery, but at a cost of added system complexity (more complexity in the electronics) and somewhat less efficiency in the "transmission" system.
Again, why costly Prius is less expensive than simple Civic Hybrid?
What kind of costly features are added to Civic Hybrid?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan_in_tempe
The HSD transmission is basically current flowing from one motor to the other, and is less than 90 efficient, where a conventional mechanical transmission is closer to 95% efficient. At constant highway speeds, the IMA allows the engine to drive the wheels more directly and efficiently (the motor is virtually bypassed), where the HSD is still using the motors, and losing a bit of efficiency doing so, but not gaining much ICE efficiency as is done in the city cycle.
Prius EPA mileage is 48/45 and Civic Hybrid mileage is 40/45.
I only see heavier Prius is more efficent than Civic Hybrid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan_in_tempe
Bottom line (for me) regarding the IMA is that it is a pretty simple modification to a conventional drivetrain which works very effectively for small cars (but less effectively scaleable to larger vehicles like the HSD is).
Prius(58.7/67.9/175.0) is almost same size as Civic Hybrid(56.3/69.0/177.3).
Bottom line (for me) regarding the IMA that it is less efficent than the HSD.
Then, why does the EPA highway mileage by the less efficient Toyota Prius record as same as the more efficient Honda Civic Hybrid, 45 mpg?
And, why is the lower cost compact Honda Civic Hybrid's MSRP ($23,650) is higher than the higher cost midsize Toyota Prius's MSRP ($22,000)?
Ken@Japan
Simple - Honda chose to sell the HCH in a single 'pretty much loaded' trim level. Toyota chose to go with a 'menu' approach, with a more modestly equipped 'standard' model, and a more generous menu of 'tart-ups'. A Prius with a load of tart-ups comparable to the HCH is > $25K.
Also, a loaded Prius can be optioned up to beyond $30K, while a 'full-boat' HCH is < $25K (with Nav as only major option. The Prius does offer a number of 'premium' features not available on the HCH; may or may not be relevant. Different marketing strategy - whether it's better for you or not depends on whether you want the tart-ups that the Honda makes you buy as a price of admission.
Re: Is this a real hybrid?
