FEH TESTING DATA
#31
01-19-2006, 01:04 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
Gary, and others with a scangauge. I've had one "glitch" with it.
My scangauge never turns off.
After sitting in the garage for 24 hours, I went into a dark garage, last night, and there was a bright orange LCD glowing at me.
I know that opening a door, or locking / unlocking by remote "wakes up" the car, and also the scangauge. At first, I thought maybe I hit the "lock" key in my pocket by accident. Nope.
Went out this A.M. and the orange light was still on. The LCD still will show all the settings, but there is no actual data. ( ex. can't check water temp. )
This orange glow is probably not a big power draw, but if I ever park for a week without running, this may be an issue.
Anyone else notice this? Maybe you never checked. I found out by accident since I was in a dark garage. If it were daylight, I wouldn't have known.
I appreciate feedback from anyone else with a ScanGauge.
Thanks.
-John
My scangauge never turns off.
After sitting in the garage for 24 hours, I went into a dark garage, last night, and there was a bright orange LCD glowing at me.
I know that opening a door, or locking / unlocking by remote "wakes up" the car, and also the scangauge. At first, I thought maybe I hit the "lock" key in my pocket by accident. Nope.
Went out this A.M. and the orange light was still on. The LCD still will show all the settings, but there is no actual data. ( ex. can't check water temp. )
This orange glow is probably not a big power draw, but if I ever park for a week without running, this may be an issue.
Anyone else notice this? Maybe you never checked. I found out by accident since I was in a dark garage. If it were daylight, I wouldn't have known.
I appreciate feedback from anyone else with a ScanGauge.
Thanks.
-John
#32
01-19-2006, 05:42 PM
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
Xcel, I gave it my all today again with the test of 15 - 20 mpg acceleration and keeping out of assist, I can't do it. Maybe someone else can, but I think it's way to close to 99% load. If I drop the it down to 10 mpg, I'm peging the needle in assist. As you call it WOT! ( for those like me, that means Wide Open Throttle from prior post).
The FEH is not a Honda or Toyota and I think Ford set it for a VERY light foot for the best FE. The scangauge is pretty much set right on 99% before assist, but you can dump alot more fuel after assist of the electric motors kicking in. This would explain some of the bad FE that is reported from some drivers.
Without you being the driver, its going to be hard getting the pulse down to its max. The FEH is clearly a new mountain thats got to be overcome. Can we double an already reduced EPA rating? I for one will try, but I'm to new for this at this point. Thank you for helping a disabled 51 yr old so far.
More test? I'm not dead yet xcel!
GaryG
The FEH is not a Honda or Toyota and I think Ford set it for a VERY light foot for the best FE. The scangauge is pretty much set right on 99% before assist, but you can dump alot more fuel after assist of the electric motors kicking in. This would explain some of the bad FE that is reported from some drivers.
Without you being the driver, its going to be hard getting the pulse down to its max. The FEH is clearly a new mountain thats got to be overcome. Can we double an already reduced EPA rating? I for one will try, but I'm to new for this at this point. Thank you for helping a disabled 51 yr old so far.
More test? I'm not dead yet xcel!
GaryG
#34
01-20-2006, 08:26 AM
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
Xcel, I'll try those test next week because the weekends are for the family. If your going to Sebring, that's not that far from me. My wife had planned to drive to West Virgina on the 17th of March (Spring Break for our 14 year old) and I know the race starts on the 18th. The pits are open around the 15th at 700:am, so if your coming for the race, I may be able to push leaving till the 18th.
My FEH is yours to play with if we can meet up while your here in Florida. If your coming to Sebring before then, no problem on my part. An email to talk this weekend on the phone would be good.
GaryG
My FEH is yours to play with if we can meet up while your here in Florida. If your coming to Sebring before then, no problem on my part. An email to talk this weekend on the phone would be good.
GaryG
#35
01-23-2006, 12:12 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
Coast Test.
SG=ScanGauge
On a mostly flat deserted road I did 4 coasting runs.
Tires at 45psi. One person, me on board.
Outside Temperature was 12'F. ICE was on the whole time.
I didn't worry about EV because I wasn't asking the system for any power.
Try 1
Crossed pole #1 at 49MPH on SG , shifted to "N", coasted 3/4 mile,
Crossed pole #2 at 24MPH on SG.
Try 2
Crossed pole #1 at 50MPH on SG, shifted to "N", coasted 3/4 mile,
Crossed pole #2 at 25MPH on SG.
Try 3
Crossed pole #1 at 50MPH on SG, kept in "D", held foot in such a position to produce no energy arrows on the diagram...
Crossed pole #2 at 25MPH on SG.
Try 4
Crossed pole #1 at 50MPH on SG, kept in "D", held foot in such a position to produce no energy arrows on the diagram...
Crossed pole #2 at 25MPH on SG.
So based on this very simple, and extreemely consistant result...
I do not believe there is any more drag "coasting" in "D" than coasting in "N".
Granted... it's much more relaxing to coast in "N".
It is much more difficult to hold your foot just right to "simulate" Neutral.
If you are judging ease of use, by all means, shift to "N".
I cannot detect any advantage for fuel economy.
If you want me to coast the same road with key off, I will... but I don't see the point. Unless the benefit was HUGE... I don't see myself ( or most others ) doing this on a daily basis. I think you are asking for trouble messing with the key.
I'm confused where the "36% improvement" is comimg from. Was that key=off?
-John
SG=ScanGauge
On a mostly flat deserted road I did 4 coasting runs.
Tires at 45psi. One person, me on board.
Outside Temperature was 12'F. ICE was on the whole time.
I didn't worry about EV because I wasn't asking the system for any power.
Try 1
Crossed pole #1 at 49MPH on SG , shifted to "N", coasted 3/4 mile,
Crossed pole #2 at 24MPH on SG.
Try 2
Crossed pole #1 at 50MPH on SG, shifted to "N", coasted 3/4 mile,
Crossed pole #2 at 25MPH on SG.
Try 3
Crossed pole #1 at 50MPH on SG, kept in "D", held foot in such a position to produce no energy arrows on the diagram...
Crossed pole #2 at 25MPH on SG.
Try 4
Crossed pole #1 at 50MPH on SG, kept in "D", held foot in such a position to produce no energy arrows on the diagram...
Crossed pole #2 at 25MPH on SG.
So based on this very simple, and extreemely consistant result...
I do not believe there is any more drag "coasting" in "D" than coasting in "N".
Granted... it's much more relaxing to coast in "N".
It is much more difficult to hold your foot just right to "simulate" Neutral.
If you are judging ease of use, by all means, shift to "N".
I cannot detect any advantage for fuel economy.
If you want me to coast the same road with key off, I will... but I don't see the point. Unless the benefit was HUGE... I don't see myself ( or most others ) doing this on a daily basis. I think you are asking for trouble messing with the key.
I'm confused where the "36% improvement" is comimg from. Was that key=off?
-John
#36
01-23-2006, 07:34 AM
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
John, try coasting with your foot off the gas pedal in "D" next time. I can feel the difference as soon as I shift out of "D" here, ICE on or OFF. The test I did was EV in "D" coasting with no gas pedal, and Key Off in "N", with all coasting done to a dead stop. The issue is regen taking away coasting distance for the best FE. Using the gas pedal to get a neutral effect is not the goal xcel was looking for I don't think. There is some charging taking place in "N" with ICE on, but I think it's not from regen based on the way your coasting much better.
GaryG
GaryG
#37
01-23-2006, 12:51 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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Posts: 3,616
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
Oh... Of COURSE coasting down in "D" with no pedal position creates regen. Is that news? That has been known since day 1 the FEH was out on the street.
Coasting in "D" = mild regen... ( if the HVBat. needs it )
Coasting in "L" = strong regen.
I think that's even in the documentation somewhere.
I'm confused what your whole point is now. ???
Remember "N" is just a state of mind. Nothing mechanical happens. The car's computer is still going to do what it needs to based on conditions and programming. By moving the gear select, you are asking it to "pretend" to be in Neutral.
I think, by definition, that "N" only removes positive torque to the wheels.
I don't think, by design, "N" has any effect over the electrical side of things.
Now... the jury's still out on what happens with the key off.
For example... I sometimes back down my sloped driveway in "N" w/o starting the car at all. Is this different than backing down the driveway in "R" or "D" for that matter, since the car is not started? ( The key is turned just far enough to unlock the steering... ) Hmm......
-John
Coasting in "D" = mild regen... ( if the HVBat. needs it )
Coasting in "L" = strong regen.
I think that's even in the documentation somewhere.
I'm confused what your whole point is now. ???
Remember "N" is just a state of mind. Nothing mechanical happens. The car's computer is still going to do what it needs to based on conditions and programming. By moving the gear select, you are asking it to "pretend" to be in Neutral.
I think, by definition, that "N" only removes positive torque to the wheels.
I don't think, by design, "N" has any effect over the electrical side of things.
Now... the jury's still out on what happens with the key off.
For example... I sometimes back down my sloped driveway in "N" w/o starting the car at all. Is this different than backing down the driveway in "R" or "D" for that matter, since the car is not started? ( The key is turned just far enough to unlock the steering... ) Hmm......
-John
#38
01-23-2006, 03:53 PM
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
John, I don't think your confused, I think your trying to confuse others here at GH for some reason. The test that xcel requested, and results I posted are free to be debated or compared. When you conducted a bizarre test and ask where the 36% is coming from, I responded kindly.
For some unknown reason you are not acknowledging that the test was done in "N" with the key off as posted either. For those who don't understand "FAS" (Force Auto Stop), it's the same as turning off the key in some situations like I did in the test. Xcel ask for the key off also in his post.
The other boloney you point out is a distraction from the issues. I'm not going to waste my time on BS. The people here want to save gas as I do, not play games.
GaryG
For some unknown reason you are not acknowledging that the test was done in "N" with the key off as posted either. For those who don't understand "FAS" (Force Auto Stop), it's the same as turning off the key in some situations like I did in the test. Xcel ask for the key off also in his post.
The other boloney you point out is a distraction from the issues. I'm not going to waste my time on BS. The people here want to save gas as I do, not play games.
GaryG
#39
01-23-2006, 05:08 PM
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
John:
The data in post #35 is interesting, but is missing FE data from the scangauge. Could you repeat with the FE measurement? The reason I ask is that the difference I see between “D”/coast/no regen and “N”/coast (when starting around 50 mph) is that when I use “D”, the ICE rpm will drop to 1,000 while with “N” the ICE rpm is around 1,250 to 1,500. In both instances, the Nav system is pegged at max instantaneous FE. However, the rpm difference seems to imply that while “N” is easier and coasts the same distance, it may not be the more fuel efficient method.
The data in post #35 is interesting, but is missing FE data from the scangauge. Could you repeat with the FE measurement? The reason I ask is that the difference I see between “D”/coast/no regen and “N”/coast (when starting around 50 mph) is that when I use “D”, the ICE rpm will drop to 1,000 while with “N” the ICE rpm is around 1,250 to 1,500. In both instances, the Nav system is pegged at max instantaneous FE. However, the rpm difference seems to imply that while “N” is easier and coasts the same distance, it may not be the more fuel efficient method.
#40
01-23-2006, 11:57 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: FEH TESTING DATA
This is a reply to this whole thread, not the previous person or recent activity.
I think it is dis-advantagous, even dangerous, to drive in "neutral", with the key off. I like to put "neutral" in quotes, because it is NOT like neutral in a non-hybrid car.
Point #1
After speaking directly with Ford... they admit roughly the first half of 2005 vehicles went out with incorrect owner's manuals. It is safe to tow any FEH with all 4 wheels on the ground, at any speed up to 75 MPH. However, this does not involve power braking or steering, both of which do not operate without the key in "run".
Point #2
Turning the key off and on puts the car though extra "boot sequences" that the car would not normally do. Each "re-boot" takes a minimum of 30 seconds... sometimes, much longer.
Point #3
Turning the key off and on, especially when moving, puts the car under conditions it is not designed for. While maybe harmless, maybe not harmless.
Point #4
Turning the key off and on, will cause volatile memory to be lost (erased). This is visible with things like the 15-minute fuel economy data, and invisible with many internal data, such as atmospheric pressure readings, oxygen sensor readings, and so on.
Point #5
Turning the key off and on, is one more "task" and one more "distraction" to the driver.
Point #6
Some people like to use the Navigation without interruption.
Point #7
Some people like to use the sound system without interruption.
Point #8
Some people like to be protected by AIR BAGS and ANTI-LOCK brakes. That's right folks, turn off your key, lose AIR BAGS in a (hopefully not) collision.
Point #9
This is largely my opinion, but at some point, things get ridiculous. The Hybrid already has 95% of the benifits of a FAS ( forced auto stop )... that benefit non-hybrid drivers get by turning the key off... with none of the disadvantages. The FEH has GREAT coasting ability already built in. Half of the duty of the battery pack is to keep "All Systems Normal" when the ICE does shut down. Its less important duty is to spin the wheels in EV mode.
Wayne ( Xcel ) has shown that he can get Hybrid gas-mileage in a non-hybrid, simply by coasting, and turning the ICE off whenever possible. He's getting hybrid mileage without a giant battery pack. This illustrates that the battery pack is NOT responsible (directly ) for most MPG gains. Turning the engine off when not needed is. The FEH already does this automatically, and safely. The HV battery pack allows you to keep your power steering on, power brakes on, AIR BAGS ON, and EVERYTHING ON, ( except air-conditioning ) without using the ICE or gasoline. A trivial amount of gasoline is required to recharge the battery if you do not brake much... but hey... a thimble of gas per day to keep my air bags on, ( and navigation display, radio, fuel economy display... etc... ) is worth it to me.
Point #10
I'm still not sure why it is implied that the FEH would get better mileage coasting with the key off in the first place... sure, you can run the car down long, steep hills, and keep the engine off below the temperature threshold.... but then, when you do need the ICE ( and you will at some point ) you will have a cold engine, one that pollutes more, and takes longer to become efficient again....and in flat areas, I REALLY have no information to think there is less drag on the car with the key off. It may be true, but I have studied this car, and experimented more than I have time to share.... and I personally think the effect is very slight, too slight, and not worth the effort. You are more than welcome to disagree, and you are more than welcome to drive how you wish.
Just use good judgement, and know you may be be taking a risk... both mechanically, and safety wise to drive with the key off. I'm all in favor of learning new things, and getting the most MPG. There are always multiple ways to achieve this goal.
-John
I think it is dis-advantagous, even dangerous, to drive in "neutral", with the key off. I like to put "neutral" in quotes, because it is NOT like neutral in a non-hybrid car.
Point #1
After speaking directly with Ford... they admit roughly the first half of 2005 vehicles went out with incorrect owner's manuals. It is safe to tow any FEH with all 4 wheels on the ground, at any speed up to 75 MPH. However, this does not involve power braking or steering, both of which do not operate without the key in "run".
Point #2
Turning the key off and on puts the car though extra "boot sequences" that the car would not normally do. Each "re-boot" takes a minimum of 30 seconds... sometimes, much longer.
Point #3
Turning the key off and on, especially when moving, puts the car under conditions it is not designed for. While maybe harmless, maybe not harmless.
Point #4
Turning the key off and on, will cause volatile memory to be lost (erased). This is visible with things like the 15-minute fuel economy data, and invisible with many internal data, such as atmospheric pressure readings, oxygen sensor readings, and so on.
Point #5
Turning the key off and on, is one more "task" and one more "distraction" to the driver.
Point #6
Some people like to use the Navigation without interruption.
Point #7
Some people like to use the sound system without interruption.
Point #8
Some people like to be protected by AIR BAGS and ANTI-LOCK brakes. That's right folks, turn off your key, lose AIR BAGS in a (hopefully not) collision.
Point #9
This is largely my opinion, but at some point, things get ridiculous. The Hybrid already has 95% of the benifits of a FAS ( forced auto stop )... that benefit non-hybrid drivers get by turning the key off... with none of the disadvantages. The FEH has GREAT coasting ability already built in. Half of the duty of the battery pack is to keep "All Systems Normal" when the ICE does shut down. Its less important duty is to spin the wheels in EV mode.
Wayne ( Xcel ) has shown that he can get Hybrid gas-mileage in a non-hybrid, simply by coasting, and turning the ICE off whenever possible. He's getting hybrid mileage without a giant battery pack. This illustrates that the battery pack is NOT responsible (directly ) for most MPG gains. Turning the engine off when not needed is. The FEH already does this automatically, and safely. The HV battery pack allows you to keep your power steering on, power brakes on, AIR BAGS ON, and EVERYTHING ON, ( except air-conditioning ) without using the ICE or gasoline. A trivial amount of gasoline is required to recharge the battery if you do not brake much... but hey... a thimble of gas per day to keep my air bags on, ( and navigation display, radio, fuel economy display... etc... ) is worth it to me.
Point #10
I'm still not sure why it is implied that the FEH would get better mileage coasting with the key off in the first place... sure, you can run the car down long, steep hills, and keep the engine off below the temperature threshold.... but then, when you do need the ICE ( and you will at some point ) you will have a cold engine, one that pollutes more, and takes longer to become efficient again....and in flat areas, I REALLY have no information to think there is less drag on the car with the key off. It may be true, but I have studied this car, and experimented more than I have time to share.... and I personally think the effect is very slight, too slight, and not worth the effort. You are more than welcome to disagree, and you are more than welcome to drive how you wish.
Just use good judgement, and know you may be be taking a risk... both mechanically, and safety wise to drive with the key off. I'm all in favor of learning new things, and getting the most MPG. There are always multiple ways to achieve this goal.
-John
Last edited by gpsman1; 01-25-2006 at 07:05 PM.
