Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
#11
12-11-2007, 01:32 PM
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
John I don't recall discussing with you my education levels. In Fact I have NEVER discussed anything with you personally. What's that saying about when you assUme?
Feel free to agree or disagree but try to be polite and civil as you will bring REAL value and zero EGO to the conversation. It will go far to adding credibility too.
Interesting that you chose to ignore the example I sited.
As for A123 I have been aware of their batteries for quite some time. I have emailed them with NO response so I figured they were more about the talk and a lot less about the walk. In my business I return calls and Emails of folks that are inquiring to buy product from me. A123 does not. Therefore I must conclude they are too proud of their stuff to let any of it go. These battery add ons and their pricing fortifies my initial conclusion.
It must be great to sell product samples at twice other technology prices with ZERO WARRANTY and ZERO TECH HELP.
Since you have chosen an angry and defensive tone I must ask you if you are in some way associated with A123 or some company working with them. Or, if not ,that at the very least you will be, if not all ready, owning one of these battery packs for your Escape?
Keep us posted as to how well it works. Thanks in advance.
Feel free to agree or disagree but try to be polite and civil as you will bring REAL value and zero EGO to the conversation. It will go far to adding credibility too.
Interesting that you chose to ignore the example I sited.
As for A123 I have been aware of their batteries for quite some time. I have emailed them with NO response so I figured they were more about the talk and a lot less about the walk. In my business I return calls and Emails of folks that are inquiring to buy product from me. A123 does not. Therefore I must conclude they are too proud of their stuff to let any of it go. These battery add ons and their pricing fortifies my initial conclusion.
It must be great to sell product samples at twice other technology prices with ZERO WARRANTY and ZERO TECH HELP.
Since you have chosen an angry and defensive tone I must ask you if you are in some way associated with A123 or some company working with them. Or, if not ,that at the very least you will be, if not all ready, owning one of these battery packs for your Escape?
Keep us posted as to how well it works. Thanks in advance.
#12
12-11-2007, 01:43 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
I only hinted your education about battery manufacturing was weak.
I on the other hand know much in this area, but little about medicine for example.
But I don't try to teach, or explain medicine either.
I only speak of what I know.
Because it was either intentionally, or accidentally incorrect.
I would like to own such a pack, but at this time, the price is beyond my means.
I wish you could find the time to read up on supply and demand, and what happens to price, when demand, far exceeds supply.
Do you also believe Gold should sell for under $1 per pound? Iron does.
Cheers,
-John
I on the other hand know much in this area, but little about medicine for example.
But I don't try to teach, or explain medicine either.
I only speak of what I know.
Because it was either intentionally, or accidentally incorrect.
I would like to own such a pack, but at this time, the price is beyond my means.
I wish you could find the time to read up on supply and demand, and what happens to price, when demand, far exceeds supply.
Do you also believe Gold should sell for under $1 per pound? Iron does.
Cheers,
-John
Last edited by gpsman1; 12-11-2007 at 02:04 PM. Reason: Added quote
#13
12-11-2007, 07:19 PM
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
Allen F, you are sadly, mistaken my friend, but that's ok. You probably don't have the education to know any better. So if you'd like an education in this matter, read on.
There is ALMOST ZERO PROFIT in the Plug-in battery market at present.
Most of these custom builds are for experimental and research purposes at this point. They are not quite "consumer ready" but if you have the money, and wish to be the first on the block, you can have one now.
You can buy crap made in China ( including batteries ) at your local Wal-Mart, but you get what you pay for.
In a $35,000 battery pack, which is by all accounts, the "Rolls Royce" of batteries, the best of the best that money can buy, here's what goes into it:
Each cell is made in the USA by A123 systems.
EDIT
okay, looking deeper, some of their mass produced batteries are made in Asia, but are developed in Massachusetts. )
These cells have ultra low resistance ( ohms ) and produce ultra low heat.
These cells are ultra light weight.
These cells have ultra high output ( amps ).
Each cell costs ~$12 even when bought in large quantities.
A 50 miles Ford battery takes 1600 cells. You read right, 1600.
1600 x $12 equals $19,200, not including shipping & handling.
Now you need hardware to solder or weld 1600 cells together.
Let's say 50 cents per battery, using brass for high conductivity and low corrosion properties. Add $800.
Now add 200 thermisters. Thats 1 temperature probe for every 8 cells.
Lets say those can be integrated with a volt meter and amp meter for every 8 cells. Lets say you can put that on a PCB ( printed circuit board ) for $5 each. Add $1000.
Now lets add parts and supplies for circuit breakers and surge protectors and other safety measures, all custom made for 300-400 volts and 100 amps, but lets say you can get that all for $500.
Now lets build a custom package, that has to fit in the same form factor as the orginal, but has to hold 50% more weight. Metal case, fiberglass or plastic inserts, etc. Add $2500.
Now you need custom software to interface with the Auto. R&D Time.
While R&D is not a material cost, it takes maybe 4000 man hours to engineer something like this. How do you factor that into a car you make one at a time?
Now what about the labor to assemble all that. Not just INSTALL all that. I mean ASSEMBLE all that... all 1600 cells and hardware. Lets say it takes 200 man hours at $15 an hour. Add $3000.
Now lets add INSTALLATION once you drop off your car for 1 day.
Lets say 2 guys at $15, 16 man hours, Add $240.
Add that up and you have $27,240 in MATERIAL COST.
I know. I was there. I've seen a battery be made from scratch.
Add to that rent on the shop ( $1500 / mo )
Add to that power and utilites for the shop ( $500 / mo )
Add to that insurance for the shop ( $???? )
Add to that tools and diagnostics equipment.
Factor in all the 4000 man hours of R&D.
Now you Allen F. tell me how much "profit" did this company make?
Looks to me that they barely broke even, and are doing this primarily for research, and to kick the big auto makers in the A$$ so they WILL mass produce these at lower cost.
There is nothing low cost / high profit about this.
And that's the truth.
-John
There is ALMOST ZERO PROFIT in the Plug-in battery market at present.
Most of these custom builds are for experimental and research purposes at this point. They are not quite "consumer ready" but if you have the money, and wish to be the first on the block, you can have one now.
You can buy crap made in China ( including batteries ) at your local Wal-Mart, but you get what you pay for.
In a $35,000 battery pack, which is by all accounts, the "Rolls Royce" of batteries, the best of the best that money can buy, here's what goes into it:
Each cell is made in the USA by A123 systems.
EDIT
okay, looking deeper, some of their mass produced batteries are made in Asia, but are developed in Massachusetts. )These cells have ultra low resistance ( ohms ) and produce ultra low heat.
These cells are ultra light weight.
These cells have ultra high output ( amps ).
Each cell costs ~$12 even when bought in large quantities.
A 50 miles Ford battery takes 1600 cells. You read right, 1600.
1600 x $12 equals $19,200, not including shipping & handling.
Now you need hardware to solder or weld 1600 cells together.
Let's say 50 cents per battery, using brass for high conductivity and low corrosion properties. Add $800.
Now add 200 thermisters. Thats 1 temperature probe for every 8 cells.
Lets say those can be integrated with a volt meter and amp meter for every 8 cells. Lets say you can put that on a PCB ( printed circuit board ) for $5 each. Add $1000.
Now lets add parts and supplies for circuit breakers and surge protectors and other safety measures, all custom made for 300-400 volts and 100 amps, but lets say you can get that all for $500.
Now lets build a custom package, that has to fit in the same form factor as the orginal, but has to hold 50% more weight. Metal case, fiberglass or plastic inserts, etc. Add $2500.
Now you need custom software to interface with the Auto. R&D Time.
While R&D is not a material cost, it takes maybe 4000 man hours to engineer something like this. How do you factor that into a car you make one at a time?
Now what about the labor to assemble all that. Not just INSTALL all that. I mean ASSEMBLE all that... all 1600 cells and hardware. Lets say it takes 200 man hours at $15 an hour. Add $3000.
Now lets add INSTALLATION once you drop off your car for 1 day.
Lets say 2 guys at $15, 16 man hours, Add $240.
Add that up and you have $27,240 in MATERIAL COST.
I know. I was there. I've seen a battery be made from scratch.
Add to that rent on the shop ( $1500 / mo )
Add to that power and utilites for the shop ( $500 / mo )
Add to that insurance for the shop ( $???? )
Add to that tools and diagnostics equipment.
Factor in all the 4000 man hours of R&D.
Now you Allen F. tell me how much "profit" did this company make?
Looks to me that they barely broke even, and are doing this primarily for research, and to kick the big auto makers in the A$$ so they WILL mass produce these at lower cost.
There is nothing low cost / high profit about this.
And that's the truth.
-John
Wow! That is a lot of detail. A question on the HV battery pack. The current (ours) HV battery pack has something like 300 D-Cell sized batteries. The A123 system has 1600! Does this mean each battery in the A123 system is smaller? (How much smaller?) Or is the A123 system battery pack still D-Cell sized but the removal of heating and cooling devices allows this much more individual batteries to be packed in?
I'm also getting at if each A123 system battery is more powerful than the current D-sized battery cell, why go to 1600 cells opposed to current standard of 300? I'm assuming for improved range and performance? But at the expense of price--1300 less cells at $12 each does add up.
#14
12-11-2007, 07:34 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
Excellent questions. I'm glad you asked.
Ford has 250 "D" ( or a tad larger ) size batteries in the FEH.
But MOST of what is in the metal "shell" under the carpet is NOT batteries!
Most of the space is other "stuff".
Take out the other "stuff" and there is room for 1600 D batteries in there. That's what you can do with the custom made packs.
Batteries went where the 2 cooling fans used to be.
Batteries went where the 2 cooling air ducts used to be.
The A123 batteries to not produce any heat ( hardly ) so it OK to do that.
Batteries went where the jump start box used to be. ( no jump starting the plug-in packs, because you just plug-em in! )
And even more computer boxes and non-required "stuff" was removed.
Each individual A123 battery is "roughly" the same size as Fords.
Remember, Ford's 250 cells give you 2 miles of "EV" or ~4 miles of assist to the gas engine before needing a recharge.
The Hybrids Plus pack with 1600 cells give you 25 miles of EV, or 50 miles of assist to the gas engine before needing a recharge.
So six times the number of cells is giving you over 12 times the power capacity, by switching to Lithium type cells. And 12 times the power with only 1.5 times the weight! That is the most amazing part ( to me ).
-John
Ford has 250 "D" ( or a tad larger ) size batteries in the FEH.
But MOST of what is in the metal "shell" under the carpet is NOT batteries!
Most of the space is other "stuff".
Take out the other "stuff" and there is room for 1600 D batteries in there. That's what you can do with the custom made packs.
Batteries went where the 2 cooling fans used to be.
Batteries went where the 2 cooling air ducts used to be.
The A123 batteries to not produce any heat ( hardly ) so it OK to do that.
Batteries went where the jump start box used to be. ( no jump starting the plug-in packs, because you just plug-em in! )
And even more computer boxes and non-required "stuff" was removed.
Each individual A123 battery is "roughly" the same size as Fords.
Remember, Ford's 250 cells give you 2 miles of "EV" or ~4 miles of assist to the gas engine before needing a recharge.
The Hybrids Plus pack with 1600 cells give you 25 miles of EV, or 50 miles of assist to the gas engine before needing a recharge.
So six times the number of cells is giving you over 12 times the power capacity, by switching to Lithium type cells. And 12 times the power with only 1.5 times the weight! That is the most amazing part ( to me ).
-John
Wow! That is a lot of detail. A question on the HV battery pack. The current (ours) HV battery pack has something like 300 D-Cell sized batteries. The A123 system has 1600! Does this mean each battery in the A123 system is smaller? (How much smaller?) Or is the A123 system battery pack still D-Cell sized but the removal of heating and cooling devices allows this much more individual batteries to be packed in?
I'm also getting at if each A123 system battery is more powerful than the current D-sized battery cell, why go to 1600 cells opposed to current standard of 300? I'm assuming for improved range and performance? But at the expense of price--1300 less cells at $12 each does add up.
I'm also getting at if each A123 system battery is more powerful than the current D-sized battery cell, why go to 1600 cells opposed to current standard of 300? I'm assuming for improved range and performance? But at the expense of price--1300 less cells at $12 each does add up.
#15
12-11-2007, 07:56 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
Bill- I forgot the second part... why 1600?
Because they wanted to see what was the maximum possible power / range you could get from a size of package already designed by Ford.
Could you put in half, or one-quarter.... sure. But as you can see, the advantage is huge weight savings, and maybe only double the power per cell. With the huge weight savings, you can "afford" to have more in the car, without the weight subtracting from fuel economy.
Hybrids plus makes a 15 mile pack for the Prius that is "invisible" ( fits in the same size package as the Toyota original battery ). Or you can buy two 15 mile packs, and have them wired together, to get a 30 mile range, but the second pack takes up cargo room.
-J
Because they wanted to see what was the maximum possible power / range you could get from a size of package already designed by Ford.
Could you put in half, or one-quarter.... sure. But as you can see, the advantage is huge weight savings, and maybe only double the power per cell. With the huge weight savings, you can "afford" to have more in the car, without the weight subtracting from fuel economy.
Hybrids plus makes a 15 mile pack for the Prius that is "invisible" ( fits in the same size package as the Toyota original battery ). Or you can buy two 15 mile packs, and have them wired together, to get a 30 mile range, but the second pack takes up cargo room.
-J
#16
12-12-2007, 06:27 AM
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
It's interesting how retrofit companies build batteries. I had no idea it cost so much.
As for the FEH plug in, Ford won't disclose the battery supplier but in a recent interview five suppliers were said to be under consideration. It's likely that only two or three are contenders.
Johnson Controls/Saft is generally considered the most likely candidate. They are making a big move into the market and are positioning themselves as "the" North American supplier of hybrid vehicle batteries.
If I had to place a bet, I'd guess that the evaluation vehicles are running JCI batteries.
As for the FEH plug in, Ford won't disclose the battery supplier but in a recent interview five suppliers were said to be under consideration. It's likely that only two or three are contenders.
Johnson Controls/Saft is generally considered the most likely candidate. They are making a big move into the market and are positioning themselves as "the" North American supplier of hybrid vehicle batteries.
If I had to place a bet, I'd guess that the evaluation vehicles are running JCI batteries.
#17
12-14-2007, 11:15 AM
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
While at first look A123 nano batteries MAY seem to be far superior to the Sanyo's batteries that come in the FEH, they are really very similar. Each cell has about the same power but the A123 bat is capable of fast charge and discharge rates and handle heat better.
The main difference is the A123 system is discharging much DEEPER than the FEH factory battery power management we currently have. This yields longer warrantied battery performance in the Ford bats because of smaller charge discharge cycles. But it also gives us far less EV only distance.
The jury is still out whether A123 battery will hold up better or not hence why they currently only offer a 1 year battery warranty. Ford goes out 8 to 10 years depending.
A123 not needing all the fans to keep them cool lets them pack more cells in the same space. Combine this with deeper discharging cycles and we get much longer EV runs before the ICE needs to recharge them.
Ford could get longer EV runs as well but not if they want to meet the required battery life that the Gov is demanding. A123 is NOT required to meet these standards so they can offer more performance over a MUCH SHORTER LIFE SPAN.
The main difference is the A123 system is discharging much DEEPER than the FEH factory battery power management we currently have. This yields longer warrantied battery performance in the Ford bats because of smaller charge discharge cycles. But it also gives us far less EV only distance.
The jury is still out whether A123 battery will hold up better or not hence why they currently only offer a 1 year battery warranty. Ford goes out 8 to 10 years depending.
A123 not needing all the fans to keep them cool lets them pack more cells in the same space. Combine this with deeper discharging cycles and we get much longer EV runs before the ICE needs to recharge them.
Ford could get longer EV runs as well but not if they want to meet the required battery life that the Gov is demanding. A123 is NOT required to meet these standards so they can offer more performance over a MUCH SHORTER LIFE SPAN.
#18
12-14-2007, 06:37 PM
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
#19
12-14-2007, 07:13 PM
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
#20
12-14-2007, 08:37 PM
Re: Ford Escape Plug-in Hybrid review
We are in the infancy stage of auto hybrid technology. Controlling discharge/charge cycles like Ford chose to do, may extend the HV battery for a longer period. Sounds good. Being more aggressive with the cycle, like depleting to 25%, and charging to 70%, would obviously increase MPG, but the price might be shortened HV battery life? So what is the dollar tradeoff in the long term? I don't know, but I'm sure everybody has an opinion. At least I hope everyone does. Hybrid owners seem to be opinionated, which is good.
I believe that when the day comes that our Traction batteries need replacing, aftermarket drop in battery advancements will make our present batteries seem archaic. Working in electronics all my life, I'm counting on it. Technology is wonderful. Embrace it, enjoy it, invest in it if you can Drive slowly, relax, get max MPG, and let the aggressive drivers go by. I enjoy laughing at them and their accelerated heart rates. Slow is good. $$$ savings on fuel is a worthwhile goal.
I believe that when the day comes that our Traction batteries need replacing, aftermarket drop in battery advancements will make our present batteries seem archaic. Working in electronics all my life, I'm counting on it. Technology is wonderful. Embrace it, enjoy it, invest in it if you can
Drive slowly, relax, get max MPG, and let the aggressive drivers go by. I enjoy laughing at them and their accelerated heart rates. Slow is good. $$$ savings on fuel is a worthwhile goal.
