The Low Gear Advantage
#231
08-09-2006, 08:40 AM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
Gary has discussed this over at CleanMPG. He seems to have had some success. I do not have a ScanGauge, so to the accuracy of the Nav system, I am not seeing a significant improvement in fuel economy in "N' vs "D" on a mile+ long coast/glide on a hill at 50 mph. "N" coasts further before dropping to 45 mph but idles at a higher rpm, "D" needs an occasional pulse of power to get to the end of the hill at 45 mph, but most of the itme the rpms are lower.
#232
08-09-2006, 10:41 AM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
Hi Everyone, and Steve, glad to see you posting again.
Lets all take a hard look at the facts here. Since Green FEH posted about the Ford patent on the "Center Axle And Wheel End Disconect", it all make sense to me now. There are at least two places in the shop manual that discuss that Neutral disconects the axles from the output shaft. I can feel the disconect, my tests have proved longer coasting, and my mileage is much better from the day I started it. While it's true that you get a higher idle in neutral (which decreases instant MPG) than Drive, your coasting 38% further. This all adds up to much better MPG overall.
The output shaft disconect I am talking about is throughout all speeds. The FEH restarts over 40 MPH is a safety factor for the electric motors like Steve pointed out, but has nothing to do with the axle disconect. As pointed out also, the owner's manual states that the FEH can be towed safely in neutral up to 75mph. If there was no disconect, this could damage the electric motors without the ICE running.
As far as safety, it's true you have to shift back to "D" or "L" to accelerate, but I personally keep my hand on the shifter if I enter "N". There is no need to depress the shifter button to pop the FEH back into drive, and I don't have much, if any delay in acceleration if I need it. For god sake, I may have to turn the streering wheel and check the rearview mirror, all at the same time with my eyes the other hand while I accelerate. The fact is, if you in an accident or the motors freeze, the output shaft disconect is also designed to release automaticly as another function.
With the hot weather here in So FL now, "N" coasting also allows me to get excellent MPG while I idle at all speeds, both charging the battery and running the A/C. Just Pulse (accelerate) to speed and Glide (coast in neutral) with the ICE (engine) running. It's great on the freeways and in the city, just watch the traffic behind you and don't be a pain.
There is a reason why myself and people like Wayne Gerdes and others on http://www.cleanmpg.com/ can constantly get higher than 10mpg above EPA ratings. Many of us go out of our way to explain our techniques on these forums. Some of you report that some of the techniques work for you, some can't see any change and others don't try or be bothered with them. If you are truely interested in increasing MPG, get gauges such as the Scangauge and hope someone can come up with a way to monitor battery level. I will not bad mouth the Nav. system because it has the battery level. I would be a little lost without it, speaking for myself.
Have Fun And Stay Cool!
GaryG
Lets all take a hard look at the facts here. Since Green FEH posted about the Ford patent on the "Center Axle And Wheel End Disconect", it all make sense to me now. There are at least two places in the shop manual that discuss that Neutral disconects the axles from the output shaft. I can feel the disconect, my tests have proved longer coasting, and my mileage is much better from the day I started it. While it's true that you get a higher idle in neutral (which decreases instant MPG) than Drive, your coasting 38% further. This all adds up to much better MPG overall.
The output shaft disconect I am talking about is throughout all speeds. The FEH restarts over 40 MPH is a safety factor for the electric motors like Steve pointed out, but has nothing to do with the axle disconect. As pointed out also, the owner's manual states that the FEH can be towed safely in neutral up to 75mph. If there was no disconect, this could damage the electric motors without the ICE running.
As far as safety, it's true you have to shift back to "D" or "L" to accelerate, but I personally keep my hand on the shifter if I enter "N". There is no need to depress the shifter button to pop the FEH back into drive, and I don't have much, if any delay in acceleration if I need it. For god sake, I may have to turn the streering wheel and check the rearview mirror, all at the same time with my eyes the other hand while I accelerate. The fact is, if you in an accident or the motors freeze, the output shaft disconect is also designed to release automaticly as another function.
With the hot weather here in So FL now, "N" coasting also allows me to get excellent MPG while I idle at all speeds, both charging the battery and running the A/C. Just Pulse (accelerate) to speed and Glide (coast in neutral) with the ICE (engine) running. It's great on the freeways and in the city, just watch the traffic behind you and don't be a pain.
There is a reason why myself and people like Wayne Gerdes and others on http://www.cleanmpg.com/ can constantly get higher than 10mpg above EPA ratings. Many of us go out of our way to explain our techniques on these forums. Some of you report that some of the techniques work for you, some can't see any change and others don't try or be bothered with them. If you are truely interested in increasing MPG, get gauges such as the Scangauge and hope someone can come up with a way to monitor battery level. I will not bad mouth the Nav. system because it has the battery level. I would be a little lost without it, speaking for myself.
Have Fun And Stay Cool!
GaryG
#233
08-13-2006, 07:12 PM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
John:
Like Gary, I don’t understand why you are being stubborn on the “Neutral” issue. Gary has done a good job of laying out the facts again here, as well as before on CleanMPG.
Short of taking apart an FEH, here are some additional points to support the patents being cited as being very likely representative of the technology in the FEH: The motor identified for the FEH is a Toshiba Permanent Magnet AC synchronous motor. This typically means the rotor has permanent magnets mounted on the rotor. If this keeps rotating in an accident, there is the potential for a large voltage surge being generated in the stator, so it makes a lot of sense to disconnect the motor/generators in this event. Second, during towing, if these elements are rotating at high speed (remember, it can be towed at up to 75 mph), hysteresis losses could build up heat and damage the system since no cooling is available or power could be generated that could damage the system.
If you have something besides a lot of WAGs to show where we are wrong, please enlighten us. Or, if you have information from your contacts at Ford, furnish it. Otherwise, you are doing the readers here a disservice.
Like Gary, I don’t understand why you are being stubborn on the “Neutral” issue. Gary has done a good job of laying out the facts again here, as well as before on CleanMPG.
Short of taking apart an FEH, here are some additional points to support the patents being cited as being very likely representative of the technology in the FEH: The motor identified for the FEH is a Toshiba Permanent Magnet AC synchronous motor. This typically means the rotor has permanent magnets mounted on the rotor. If this keeps rotating in an accident, there is the potential for a large voltage surge being generated in the stator, so it makes a lot of sense to disconnect the motor/generators in this event. Second, during towing, if these elements are rotating at high speed (remember, it can be towed at up to 75 mph), hysteresis losses could build up heat and damage the system since no cooling is available or power could be generated that could damage the system.
If you have something besides a lot of WAGs to show where we are wrong, please enlighten us. Or, if you have information from your contacts at Ford, furnish it. Otherwise, you are doing the readers here a disservice.
#234
08-13-2006, 09:23 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
Maybe at the heart is the "one-way clutch".
If pushed from behind in a rear-end accident, or accelerated by gravity going downhill, then there is a virtual disconnect. Like a ratchet wrench... power can be applied in one direction, but it can free wheel in the opposite direction. Or, if you will, gravity pulling the car, is like the bolt turning the socket on the ratchet, whereas normal operation is the socket turning the bolt. This anology works. If pushed from the front, I would think the only disconnect would come from physically breaking something... and while perhaps keeping safety paramount, would in fact disable the car.
Tonite was cold and damp. I was coasting in EV down a long 2% road in N. This mild 2% is not enough to speed me up, but is just enough for me to maintain a steady 30 MPH for a mile or more. I do it all the time. Due to the cold ( I guess ? ) my engine came on ( in N )to heat things up. My car sped up with a noticable surge of power in N while the ICE cranked up. ( 3 seconds? ) My speed sped from 30 MPH to 32 MPH and then leveled off and stayed at 32 MPH and resumed coast mode. I was in N the whole time. While this effect was probably not desired, and not by design, it illustrates that things are still "connected" in N.
More proof you ask? Smoking gun follows. Ever notice your car's ICE will start in N if you are moving over 6 mph? Ever notice it will not start the ICE in N under 6mph or when stopped? Ever wonder why? At the Ford Hybrid Open House in Dearborn MI last October, I was told why by a member of the engineering team. The answer revolves around there being no physical disconnect.
Think about that latter part. If everything were really disconnected, then the car would have no sense of speed and it should be able to start and stop the ICE at any speed in N. It can't. I was specifically told face to face with Ford engineers including MaryAnn Wright at the open house in Dearborn last year that it is impossible to start the ICE under 6mph in N because all electrical power was cut from the starter. At speeds over 6mph, the car's forward momentum ( speed ) is used to start the ICE. At speeds under 6 MPH there is not enough momentum, and when stopped, you have zero momentum. This is why N "locks in" EV mode when stopped in N. It was not a design choice, it is impossible to restart.
The car was programmed to keep the ICE running no matter what, if you shift to N while stopped, because the car knows if it did stop, it would be impossible to restart itself, and it doesn't want to be in that condition.
I know I discussed this 10 months ago. Sounds like even some "old timers" on here have forgotten this little tidbit. Oh well. I don't mind repeating myself once in a while in the pursuit of 'truth, justice, and the American way."
-John
If pushed from behind in a rear-end accident, or accelerated by gravity going downhill, then there is a virtual disconnect. Like a ratchet wrench... power can be applied in one direction, but it can free wheel in the opposite direction. Or, if you will, gravity pulling the car, is like the bolt turning the socket on the ratchet, whereas normal operation is the socket turning the bolt. This anology works. If pushed from the front, I would think the only disconnect would come from physically breaking something... and while perhaps keeping safety paramount, would in fact disable the car.
Tonite was cold and damp. I was coasting in EV down a long 2% road in N. This mild 2% is not enough to speed me up, but is just enough for me to maintain a steady 30 MPH for a mile or more. I do it all the time. Due to the cold ( I guess ? ) my engine came on ( in N )to heat things up. My car sped up with a noticable surge of power in N while the ICE cranked up. ( 3 seconds? ) My speed sped from 30 MPH to 32 MPH and then leveled off and stayed at 32 MPH and resumed coast mode. I was in N the whole time. While this effect was probably not desired, and not by design, it illustrates that things are still "connected" in N.
More proof you ask? Smoking gun follows. Ever notice your car's ICE will start in N if you are moving over 6 mph? Ever notice it will not start the ICE in N under 6mph or when stopped? Ever wonder why? At the Ford Hybrid Open House in Dearborn MI last October, I was told why by a member of the engineering team. The answer revolves around there being no physical disconnect.
Think about that latter part. If everything were really disconnected, then the car would have no sense of speed and it should be able to start and stop the ICE at any speed in N. It can't. I was specifically told face to face with Ford engineers including MaryAnn Wright at the open house in Dearborn last year that it is impossible to start the ICE under 6mph in N because all electrical power was cut from the starter. At speeds over 6mph, the car's forward momentum ( speed ) is used to start the ICE. At speeds under 6 MPH there is not enough momentum, and when stopped, you have zero momentum. This is why N "locks in" EV mode when stopped in N. It was not a design choice, it is impossible to restart.
The car was programmed to keep the ICE running no matter what, if you shift to N while stopped, because the car knows if it did stop, it would be impossible to restart itself, and it doesn't want to be in that condition.
I know I discussed this 10 months ago. Sounds like even some "old timers" on here have forgotten this little tidbit. Oh well. I don't mind repeating myself once in a while in the pursuit of 'truth, justice, and the American way."
-John
Last edited by gpsman1; 08-14-2006 at 01:05 PM.
#235
08-13-2006, 11:17 PM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
My last post was a hint, but it seems you all missed that.
All right, it's time to close this. This thread is getting pretty cumbersome.
The only replies I want in this thread from now until this gets locked are what should go into the first posts of a Low Gear Advantage II thread, so that newbs can quickly get the summary of this. It doesn't have to be absolutely proven, just suggestions.
Besides, we're not even talking about L, or any of its advantages for the last five plus pages, which makes all this off topic.
Clear?
All right, it's time to close this. This thread is getting pretty cumbersome.
The only replies I want in this thread from now until this gets locked are what should go into the first posts of a Low Gear Advantage II thread, so that newbs can quickly get the summary of this. It doesn't have to be absolutely proven, just suggestions.
Besides, we're not even talking about L, or any of its advantages for the last five plus pages, which makes all this off topic.
Clear?
#236
08-13-2006, 11:32 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
For additional information,
Please also see a new thread entitled:
Neutral Gear - What's really going on?
( should have been started sooner, sorry. )
Please also see a new thread entitled:
Neutral Gear - What's really going on?
( should have been started sooner, sorry. )
#237
08-20-2006, 06:40 PM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
In order to repost the LGA, I choose to post a summary of what I've learned to improve my FE on http://www.cleanmpg.com/ . The thread only deals with my perception of the LGA FWIW.
GaryG
GaryG
#238
01-15-2007, 04:18 PM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
Don't have a clue about what most of you are talking about here!
But, after reading thru this forum on the TLGA, and after having experimented with it, albeit briefly, my conclusion is:
1. I will use L only while we putt putt around our mountainous town, in COLD weather! This seems like a no brainer because there is no need to push the brake pedal when going down hills as the regen braking exerts just about the right amount of resistance for the degree of hills and the speed of traffic we have around my town (Paradise, CA). So far, in cold weather as we've had here since we bought our AWD, we have not yet experienced the increased ICE speed to drain the hybrid battery (or whatever it is doing) when operating in L mode.
2. When it makes sense to have low-resistance coasting, it makes sense to use D mode. So, I plan on going to D when
a. I am in the flat lands
b. I am going over 40 or so and DON'T need to have the car slowed when I let my foot off the gas pedal.
c. When the weather's warm. I suspect the hybrid battery will be less tolerant of overcharging when it's warm outside. Therefore, I will probably use D mode more when it's warm out. I still am guessing, because of our hilly area, that normal jaunts about Paradise will warrant the benefits of L mode and won't cause ICE revving.
If you find you are getting the ICE rev up, you're too much in L mode.
Did I get it right?
Loving playing around with this! We still have not good mpg, but again it's new, the mainstay of our trips are very short. We currently are showing 24.0mpg, and that is with most miles done in 1.5 mile one-way trips (work commute with 8h between), which I appreciate is about the worst possible basic driving condition for this particular hybrid. And a couple of hops to Chico and back, about a 36m drive with several shopping or errand stops. I was thinking 25-26mpg is about the best we can hope for for our particular driving conditions. Maybe 27 if we are real dedicated!
Noel
2007 FEH AWD
But, after reading thru this forum on the TLGA, and after having experimented with it, albeit briefly, my conclusion is:
1. I will use L only while we putt putt around our mountainous town, in COLD weather! This seems like a no brainer because there is no need to push the brake pedal when going down hills as the regen braking exerts just about the right amount of resistance for the degree of hills and the speed of traffic we have around my town (Paradise, CA). So far, in cold weather as we've had here since we bought our AWD, we have not yet experienced the increased ICE speed to drain the hybrid battery (or whatever it is doing) when operating in L mode.
2. When it makes sense to have low-resistance coasting, it makes sense to use D mode. So, I plan on going to D when
a. I am in the flat lands
b. I am going over 40 or so and DON'T need to have the car slowed when I let my foot off the gas pedal.
c. When the weather's warm. I suspect the hybrid battery will be less tolerant of overcharging when it's warm outside. Therefore, I will probably use D mode more when it's warm out. I still am guessing, because of our hilly area, that normal jaunts about Paradise will warrant the benefits of L mode and won't cause ICE revving.
If you find you are getting the ICE rev up, you're too much in L mode.
Did I get it right?
Loving playing around with this! We still have not good mpg, but again it's new, the mainstay of our trips are very short. We currently are showing 24.0mpg, and that is with most miles done in 1.5 mile one-way trips (work commute with 8h between), which I appreciate is about the worst possible basic driving condition for this particular hybrid. And a couple of hops to Chico and back, about a 36m drive with several shopping or errand stops. I was thinking 25-26mpg is about the best we can hope for for our particular driving conditions. Maybe 27 if we are real dedicated!
Noel
2007 FEH AWD
Last edited by ncp10; 01-15-2007 at 04:47 PM.
#239
04-18-2007, 06:25 PM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
Sorry to Pravas Prime, because I thought he deleted this thread. I found it with a search which I should have done. This is a thread that changed my mileage up to this day, and can change your mileage also. Some of you will not understand what this is all about, but this is worth 3 to 5 mpg better than what you may be getting after warm-up.
I use key-off FAS during warm-up now, so I can get even better mileage now. Don't try that until you know what your doing. GPSman1, don't ever try it!
GaryG
I use key-off FAS during warm-up now, so I can get even better mileage now. Don't try that until you know what your doing. GPSman1, don't ever try it!
GaryG
#240
04-19-2007, 12:42 PM
Re: The Low Gear Advantage
Just curious...
rcomeau
