"Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
#121
09-29-2007, 07:20 AM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
I chose not to respond until the result of Gary's svc visit before spreading any more of my far fetched conclusions.
Q1: Yes. But I was wrong, it was the excessive FAS that caused the problem, not excessive FS.
Q2: The warranty absolutely applies, unless you either use the vehicle excessively or use it in a unintended way. Ford designed this vehicle to drive as much like a "normal" Escape for a reason....
Gary G has made the choice to try some hypermiling techniques. That's fine and his choice. Good for him. Where I have a problem is where he tried to pin this problem on the non-recall recall, by concluding that: "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92). I tried to point out that (after GPS man did), that maybe it was his techniques that caused the problems, unrelated to the recall program (see my post# 94), and got blasted for it..
My concern isn't for Gary, he's made that choice, but that a newbie discounts the FEH as an vehicle option after hearing "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92), or "Would you want to pay $8,000 for a new battery after 100,000 miles and only got 30mpg?" (post#98). The fact is that battery/hybrid system failure is very, very, rare and we have several normal use vehicles approaching 75-100k miles; and taxis surpassing 175k miles.
Or concern#2:
Someone tries these hypermiling techniques and either gets in an accident (drafting too close, rear ended for braking using the L--no brakelights, etc.) or voids their warranty/trashes their FEH trying some of these techniques. Just want to be sure we're not highlighting these lofty mpgs without sharing all the facts(the pros AND the cons).
I apologize if I've offended anyone, but I see more and more newbies or lurkers who join a coversation that we've been having for 3yrs or more (I joined in fall'04)
Nate
Q1: Yes. But I was wrong, it was the excessive FAS that caused the problem, not excessive FS.
Q2: The warranty absolutely applies, unless you either use the vehicle excessively or use it in a unintended way. Ford designed this vehicle to drive as much like a "normal" Escape for a reason....
Gary G has made the choice to try some hypermiling techniques. That's fine and his choice. Good for him. Where I have a problem is where he tried to pin this problem on the non-recall recall, by concluding that: "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92). I tried to point out that (after GPS man did), that maybe it was his techniques that caused the problems, unrelated to the recall program (see my post# 94), and got blasted for it..
My concern isn't for Gary, he's made that choice, but that a newbie discounts the FEH as an vehicle option after hearing "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92), or "Would you want to pay $8,000 for a new battery after 100,000 miles and only got 30mpg?" (post#98). The fact is that battery/hybrid system failure is very, very, rare and we have several normal use vehicles approaching 75-100k miles; and taxis surpassing 175k miles.
Or concern#2:
Someone tries these hypermiling techniques and either gets in an accident (drafting too close, rear ended for braking using the L--no brakelights, etc.) or voids their warranty/trashes their FEH trying some of these techniques. Just want to be sure we're not highlighting these lofty mpgs without sharing all the facts(the pros AND the cons).
I apologize if I've offended anyone, but I see more and more newbies or lurkers who join a coversation that we've been having for 3yrs or more (I joined in fall'04)
Nate
Because I got a false "Stop Safely Now", I stopped FASing a month and a half ago and posted it here on GH. I truly believed the battery recall was the problem when we got our notice, but I continued to stop FASing. We now know that $24 in relays can be replaced if anyone else has problems like my FEH. I think I've shared all the facts I know about my techniques, pro and con as I learn about my FEH. I could have been silent on what was wrong with my FEH, but I didn't for those I like to help.
I spent about 45 minutes talking to the Hybrid Tech talking about everything from reflashing the PCM, BCM, TBCM and "N" disconnects. He also informed me of all the problems he has seen so far in three years regarding the FEH. I've heard of most of them on the boards already, but he did come up with more than a few I haven't heard of. One of the issues was the electric heater pump going out at about 50,000 miles not coverred under warranty. I have advocated here and other places that the HVAC system should be turned to the off position when not needed. This pump only runs in EV when the system is in any position other than off. So when your running the fan in Vent, your using power to run the electric coolant pump also. Now that we know that pump is short lived, we can help others save money down the road and gas now. Even the Hybrid Tech never thought of turning the climate control off to stop the pump motor.
We shared a lot of information about the FEH and its operation and I can share a lot with you folks. I have three years of experience and often bring my experience to these boards to help others. This new TBCM reprogramming may have updated our '05, '06 and some '07's to the '08 drivability. My Keep Alive Memory (KAM) was reset to the default settings when the 12V ground was disconnected for the recall and test that were run on my FEH. Many of you have no idea what I'm talking about, but basically all my long term fuel trim settings will need to be reprogrammed with my hypermiling techniques and restored in the KAM to get my mileage back to normal. The updated BCM programming may be worth those not in the recall to pay for the updates. I think I may have those answers in the near future.
GaryG
#122
09-29-2007, 07:35 AM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
The comment about drafting was not aimed at you Gary, if I gave that impression I apologize. We've all heard some crazy (and IMHO unsafe) hypermiling practices from not only this crowd...but the prius, HCH, insight, etc. drivers too.
I agree about the BCM...you were spot on about the BCM (not PCM) being reflashed. IMHO it is worth it, even if you had to pay a little...for those with older FEHs. (I think they improved as they went along with the 06s and 07s.) Much smoother running now, FE up about 1-1.5mpg. Makes the FEH more plesurable to drive.
Nate
I agree about the BCM...you were spot on about the BCM (not PCM) being reflashed. IMHO it is worth it, even if you had to pay a little...for those with older FEHs. (I think they improved as they went along with the 06s and 07s.) Much smoother running now, FE up about 1-1.5mpg. Makes the FEH more plesurable to drive.
Nate
#123
09-29-2007, 07:51 AM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
I chose not to respond until the result of Gary's svc visit before spreading any more of my far fetched conclusions.
Q1: Yes. But I was wrong, it was the excessive FAS that caused the problem, not excessive FS.
There is no hard evidence that FAS had anything to do with the problem, just your desire to blame driving techniques on it. YOUR relay could go out next week...or never.
Q2: The warranty absolutely applies, unless you either use the vehicle excessively excessive use can void a warranty? UH-OH!! or use it in a unintended way. Ford designed this vehicle to drive as much like a "normal" Escape for a reason....
That reason being to appeal to the general public. That is well documented.
Gary G has made the choice to try some hypermiling techniques. That's fine and his choice. Good for him. Where I have a problem is where he tried to pin this problem on the non-recall recall, by concluding that: "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92). I tried to point out that (after GPS man did), that maybe it was his techniques that caused the problems, unrelated to the recall program (see my post# 94), and got blasted for it..
My concern isn't for Gary, he's made that choice, but that a newbie discounts the FEH as an vehicle option after hearing "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92), or "Would you want to pay $8,000 for a new battery after 100,000 miles and only got 30mpg?" (post#98). The fact is that battery/hybrid system failure is very, very, rare and we have several normal use vehicles approaching 75-100k miles; and taxis surpassing 175k miles.
Including mine.
Or concern#2:
Someone tries these hypermiling techniques and either gets in an accident (drafting too close, rear ended for braking using the L--no brakelights, etc.) or voids their warranty/trashes their FEH trying some of these techniques.
You cannot void your warranty using these techniques!!!
Just want to be sure we're not highlighting these lofty mpgs without sharing all the facts(the pros AND the cons).
I apologize if I've offended anyone, but I see more and more newbies or lurkers who join a coversation that we've been having for 3yrs or more (I joined in fall'04)
Nate
Q1: Yes. But I was wrong, it was the excessive FAS that caused the problem, not excessive FS.
There is no hard evidence that FAS had anything to do with the problem, just your desire to blame driving techniques on it. YOUR relay could go out next week...or never.
Q2: The warranty absolutely applies, unless you either use the vehicle excessively excessive use can void a warranty? UH-OH!! or use it in a unintended way. Ford designed this vehicle to drive as much like a "normal" Escape for a reason....
That reason being to appeal to the general public. That is well documented.
Gary G has made the choice to try some hypermiling techniques. That's fine and his choice. Good for him. Where I have a problem is where he tried to pin this problem on the non-recall recall, by concluding that: "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92). I tried to point out that (after GPS man did), that maybe it was his techniques that caused the problems, unrelated to the recall program (see my post# 94), and got blasted for it..
My concern isn't for Gary, he's made that choice, but that a newbie discounts the FEH as an vehicle option after hearing "Ford has identified a serious fix needed for the HV battery" (post#92), or "Would you want to pay $8,000 for a new battery after 100,000 miles and only got 30mpg?" (post#98). The fact is that battery/hybrid system failure is very, very, rare and we have several normal use vehicles approaching 75-100k miles; and taxis surpassing 175k miles.
Including mine.
Or concern#2:
Someone tries these hypermiling techniques and either gets in an accident (drafting too close, rear ended for braking using the L--no brakelights, etc.) or voids their warranty/trashes their FEH trying some of these techniques.
You cannot void your warranty using these techniques!!!
Just want to be sure we're not highlighting these lofty mpgs without sharing all the facts(the pros AND the cons).
I apologize if I've offended anyone, but I see more and more newbies or lurkers who join a coversation that we've been having for 3yrs or more (I joined in fall'04)
Nate
#125
09-29-2007, 02:44 PM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
Ford and the Hybrid Tech said this is the first time they've seen this problem. Just a little research and I'm very convinced that repeated Fas caused the PSR to short out.
#126
09-29-2007, 03:31 PM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
Just an update on my FEH. The recall work was done in about three hours. My "Service Emission Sys" message was due to a problem with the EGR valve, which will be replaced next week.
I have noticed no difference in EV after the recall.
I have noticed no difference in EV after the recall.
#127
09-29-2007, 07:58 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
The problem I see is now that 3 or 4 people who have had the battery Mod say they get better MPG, most of us are going to be looking for it.
Often, we see what we are looking for, even if it is not there.
If the allowable range ( 40 - 60 % ) nominal.... hasn't changed....
Down to 32% allowed for short periods, such as first minute or two after a cold start... and if generator recharging still stops at 53%, then the MPG will not be able to change, unless something else changed, like the weight of the car was lessened, or the fuel trim was changed.
As we get Carl and a few others with the new "X-gauge" on the ScanGauge, we can see if any of these percentages have changed.
Remember, all the energy for motion comes from the gas you pump.
( unless you plug yours in at night like Gary...
j/k )
You can't get more energy from a software change.
You could capture more regen with a software change, perhaps.
The software could change how the car behaves, and I suppose if it shuts down the ICE a few seconds sooner, over time that would add up. I hope the change is "real" and not just a false perception. ( read as mass hallucination ) -John
Often, we see what we are looking for, even if it is not there.
If the allowable range ( 40 - 60 % ) nominal.... hasn't changed....
Down to 32% allowed for short periods, such as first minute or two after a cold start... and if generator recharging still stops at 53%, then the MPG will not be able to change, unless something else changed, like the weight of the car was lessened, or the fuel trim was changed.
As we get Carl and a few others with the new "X-gauge" on the ScanGauge, we can see if any of these percentages have changed.
Remember, all the energy for motion comes from the gas you pump.
( unless you plug yours in at night like Gary...
j/k )You can't get more energy from a software change.
You could capture more regen with a software change, perhaps.
The software could change how the car behaves, and I suppose if it shuts down the ICE a few seconds sooner, over time that would add up. I hope the change is "real" and not just a false perception. ( read as mass hallucination ) -John
#128
09-30-2007, 03:08 AM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
I took my FWD FEH in for the replacement of the battery harness last week. I took them about 4 hours including an oil change.
After a few miles the first thing I noticed was that the ICE was going off sooner and staying off longer then it had been before I took it in.
I also noticed that when the ICE is on that my instant MPG (Scangage) is lower then it was before on the same roads and same type of driving.
Overall my average MPG have gone from 35.6 to 37.8.
I have no idea why I am getting better mileage but I am happy with it. I just drive it pretty much like any other car and don't really use any of the tricks to get the mileage up.
After a few miles the first thing I noticed was that the ICE was going off sooner and staying off longer then it had been before I took it in.
I also noticed that when the ICE is on that my instant MPG (Scangage) is lower then it was before on the same roads and same type of driving.
Overall my average MPG have gone from 35.6 to 37.8.
I have no idea why I am getting better mileage but I am happy with it. I just drive it pretty much like any other car and don't really use any of the tricks to get the mileage up.
#129
09-30-2007, 10:02 AM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
I took my FWD FEH in for the replacement of the battery harness last week. I took them about 4 hours including an oil change.
After a few miles the first thing I noticed was that the ICE was going off sooner and staying off longer then it had been before I took it in.
I also noticed that when the ICE is on that my instant MPG (Scangage) is lower then it was before on the same roads and same type of driving.
Overall my average MPG have gone from 35.6 to 37.8.
I have no idea why I am getting better mileage but I am happy with it. I just drive it pretty much like any other car and don't really use any of the tricks to get the mileage up.
After a few miles the first thing I noticed was that the ICE was going off sooner and staying off longer then it had been before I took it in.
I also noticed that when the ICE is on that my instant MPG (Scangage) is lower then it was before on the same roads and same type of driving.
Overall my average MPG have gone from 35.6 to 37.8.
I have no idea why I am getting better mileage but I am happy with it. I just drive it pretty much like any other car and don't really use any of the tricks to get the mileage up.
As far as worst instant MPG, I've already stated your KAM was cleared and went back to the default settings when the Tech disconnected the 12V battery for more than five minutes. This means your FEH/MMH must relearn and store new data for your driving conditions and habits. Until this is completed, your going to most likely see a reduction in instant MPG while the ICE is running, but you should see an improvement in city driving while the ICE is shutting down more in older FEH/MMH with the original TBCM programming. I seen this change instantly as I test drove my FEH with the Tech Friday. I also saw a decrease in my average MPG on my trip home because my long term fuel trim data had been cleared in the KAM.
This may not be all bad for folks that are seeing a drop in temperature now and the long term fuel trim has to adjust in KAM from summer weather anyway. Since my weather is still hot, I'm going have reduced MPG till my long term fuel trim and my driving habits are restored in KAM. This is also a good time to replace my 12V battery so I don't have to adjust twice down the road from now.
GaryG
#130
09-30-2007, 03:24 PM
Re: "Recall" on 2005 - 2007 FEH and 2006 - 2007 MMH
Gary, thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten that it needed to re-learn my driving conditions again. At this point I am very happy with my FEH.
Bob
Bob
