Who's modding their hybrids?
#1
12-30-2005, 07:56 AM
Who's modding their hybrids?
Looking at some of the other threads this one probably seems out of left field. But I come from a tinkerers perspective. I like to work on cars, but hybrids are an all new ball game. I'm just wondering is anyone working on these cars to get even more out of them?
Can the electric motors be tweeaked, can you get them to perform at higher speeds, can you get more performance out of your FEH without getting hit at the pump? Just curious if anyone has started working on these cars yet?
When did the FEH first come out? I suppose you wont see much modding till after the warranties wear out. But it doesn't hurt to ask.
Thanks,
Mike
Can the electric motors be tweeaked, can you get them to perform at higher speeds, can you get more performance out of your FEH without getting hit at the pump? Just curious if anyone has started working on these cars yet?
When did the FEH first come out? I suppose you wont see much modding till after the warranties wear out. But it doesn't hurt to ask.
Thanks,
Mike
#5
12-30-2005, 09:18 AM
Re: Who's modding their hybrids?
Well it was sort of a two sided approach. I figured some would work on increasing performance without decreasing mileage. I then figured others would simply work on increasing mileage at the cost of... well whatever.
There are ways to add performance without decreasing mileage.
Mike
There are ways to add performance without decreasing mileage.
Mike
Last edited by buschman; 12-30-2005 at 09:21 AM.
#6
12-31-2005, 12:44 AM
Re: Who's modding their hybrids?
Originally Posted by buschman
When did the FEH first come out? I suppose you wont see much modding till after the warranties wear out. But it doesn't hurt to ask.
I would be extremely surprised, as the FEH has been out for only two years (ish; probably more like a year and a half). Also, given the complexity and how most of the essential systems are tied into one another, I'd be willing to bet that most people who do mod their cars are going to stay away from this vehicle, at least for now, because of that.
Even if you could tweak the battery or the motor to give more power, you'd have to change all four computer control systems to reflect those changes, and change all the directives and protocols for its running and recharging activities as well as it's power allocations. Same goes for the engine, you make some changes to alter how it runs, and you may find yourself in a situation where the computers don't allocate energy any more wisely, leaving you either less effecient or worse.
There seems to be a general consensus by automakers that future hybrids will have an alterable software/hardware packages to allow the driver to determine how the hybrid systems works, either more fuel efficient and conservative for those great MPGs or more towards power and performance, and to make the changes as the driver sees fit.
Now, that's not to say that no one is working on any. There is a group (In San Francisco as I recall) that offers adding plug in power sources to extend the vehicles EV capacities, as they have already for other hybrids. This invalidates all warranties, but they're aiming to add a 100 mile EV capacity to the FEH, though even now they're still in the developmental phase of the modification. Though, as pointed out at the FEH Experience, that the weight of such addons usually cancel out most of the bonus range.
But outside of interior comforts, tires, and other such things, no I don't think you'll find anyone who's been tinkering much under the hood. At least for now I think most people will trust the Ford Engineers to have designed the systems to their utmost abilties for both longevity and performance.
#8
12-31-2005, 03:44 PM
Re: Who's modding their hybrids?
Consider that these vehicles were all developed with the primary goal of minimizing emissions and you can see why the choices were made the way they were.
Since greenhouse gas emissions are directly proportional to fuel consumption, MPG came along for the ride, but the main thing is always lower emissions. That's why the warmup period works the way it does...burn fuel as necessary to get that cat lit up and working.
Since greenhouse gas emissions are directly proportional to fuel consumption, MPG came along for the ride, but the main thing is always lower emissions. That's why the warmup period works the way it does...burn fuel as necessary to get that cat lit up and working.
#9
01-04-2006, 12:03 PM
Re: Who's modding their hybrids?
Hey xcel you are hitting on what I'm asking. It's funny you mention backyard mechanic. The underlying goal of my thread is to find out what what would be possible to do on my own. I currently have two cars a 95 Dodge Intrepid and a 00 Pontiac Firehawk(Firebird). I really like these cars as the internet backing is excellent.
The Intrepid boards are great for getting a bunch of backyard mechanics together to come up with ways to keep these cars running cheap. At 130K miles I was able to swap out a dying tranny for $600. I had to do the work myself, but thanks to forums and the solid internet backing I was able to get a newer stronger transmission into the car. I love stuff like that.
The Firebird(aka F-Body) boards are far more prevalent. They tend to lean towards maximizing performance(MPG is almost never mentioned on those boards), but they also get into a lot of repairs and work arounds.
These internet resources have saved me thousands of dollars in repairs and taught me a tremendous amount about the interworkings of today's automobile. Not to mention I tend to hang onto a vehicle for 7+ years on average. Maintaining a car out of warranty can be very expensive. So researching and finding a car that meets all my needs, not to mention one that will be fun to drive and play with, and one that will be reliable and easy to maintain/repair is why I tend to start looking so early.
So I guess along with the other cars on my list I'm trying to gauge what kind of resources will be avilable to me once the warranty runs out. Each of my top three(which the FEH is one of) have their pluses and minuses. I guess the FEH is sort of a big question mark on being able to repair and maintain it myself and what kind of things fellow owners will be doing with there. Wioth a few obvious exceptions(probably all the people who've posted in this thread) most of the FEH drivers posting don't seem like "car people." More like environmentalists. Nothing against environmentalists, I just don't think too many are gonna help me swap a big dirty tranny at 130K miles.
Performance gains are just for fun. I don't really care too much about performance in my daily driver. i have the firehawk when I need my torque fix. I will be replacing the Intrepid which is my current DD. So it's really a commuter car and a car to tote my big GSD around in. Hiking and trails and such.
So hearing what others are doing to get more out of their hybrids is of interest to me. Those are the types of people who think outside the box and aren't afraid to try stuff on their own. That's where I'm coming from. Hopefully this board is home to a few people like that. Or perhaps there is another board more suited for that sort of thing.
Thanks for the helpful advice so far guys.
Mike
The Intrepid boards are great for getting a bunch of backyard mechanics together to come up with ways to keep these cars running cheap. At 130K miles I was able to swap out a dying tranny for $600. I had to do the work myself, but thanks to forums and the solid internet backing I was able to get a newer stronger transmission into the car. I love stuff like that.
The Firebird(aka F-Body) boards are far more prevalent. They tend to lean towards maximizing performance(MPG is almost never mentioned on those boards), but they also get into a lot of repairs and work arounds.
These internet resources have saved me thousands of dollars in repairs and taught me a tremendous amount about the interworkings of today's automobile. Not to mention I tend to hang onto a vehicle for 7+ years on average. Maintaining a car out of warranty can be very expensive. So researching and finding a car that meets all my needs, not to mention one that will be fun to drive and play with, and one that will be reliable and easy to maintain/repair is why I tend to start looking so early.
So I guess along with the other cars on my list I'm trying to gauge what kind of resources will be avilable to me once the warranty runs out. Each of my top three(which the FEH is one of) have their pluses and minuses. I guess the FEH is sort of a big question mark on being able to repair and maintain it myself and what kind of things fellow owners will be doing with there. Wioth a few obvious exceptions(probably all the people who've posted in this thread) most of the FEH drivers posting don't seem like "car people." More like environmentalists. Nothing against environmentalists, I just don't think too many are gonna help me swap a big dirty tranny at 130K miles.
Performance gains are just for fun. I don't really care too much about performance in my daily driver. i have the firehawk when I need my torque fix. I will be replacing the Intrepid which is my current DD. So it's really a commuter car and a car to tote my big GSD around in. Hiking and trails and such.
So hearing what others are doing to get more out of their hybrids is of interest to me. Those are the types of people who think outside the box and aren't afraid to try stuff on their own. That's where I'm coming from. Hopefully this board is home to a few people like that. Or perhaps there is another board more suited for that sort of thing.
Thanks for the helpful advice so far guys.
Mike
Originally Posted by xcel
Hi All:
___Let me first say that their was a team of scientists (I mean PhD’s in Electrical, Mechanical, and Computer Engineering disciplines) that got the Escape HEV up and running from initial prototype to test mule. I am sure there was the same at Toyota, Honda, and the rest. Not to say there are not mods that can and cannot be performed but like all of them, some may be ill-advised unless said owner is completely aware of what the ramifications are for a given mod. The WAI and radiator block in the Insight is pretty simple but not without the unknowing owners ability to cause some harm. I have seen and performed the same on the Prius II and FEH. MIMA in the Insight is probably violating some Honda internal pack constraints but some swear by it. A FAS switch in the Insight is for sure changing both the Insight’s FE and emissions profile. Hacking the ECU and various modules is where you had better know what you are doing. The Ford Engineers had drop dead limits on SoC range, rate of charge and/or assist as well as ICE emissions profiles that absolutely could not be violated. I can tell you that if those same engineers were allowed to break all those constraints, the Escape HEV could and would be an absolute stunner in the FTP75. I mean absolute as in 50 + mpg type numbers from that large a vehicle in the city test. I can also tell you why the simple EV switch in the Prius II was not allowed in the states. It changes the same cars FE and emissions profile in the FTP75 and the EPA will not currently allow user intervention to change either the Emissions or FE ratings.
___I do not know if this is what the OP was looking for or not? A quick look at the Bonneville or E-Drive’s Prius II’s shows what is possible but again, their was some intervention that may or may not have broken some of the absolute constraints the original manufacturers were forced by law or automobile design longevity to adhere too. Lighter weight wheels and lower LRR tires are a start but modding the ICE’s profile via ECU flash is where a very good OEM system integrator/designer/engineer should be heavily involved and that usually is not the back yard mechanic type anymore
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Let me first say that their was a team of scientists (I mean PhD’s in Electrical, Mechanical, and Computer Engineering disciplines) that got the Escape HEV up and running from initial prototype to test mule. I am sure there was the same at Toyota, Honda, and the rest. Not to say there are not mods that can and cannot be performed but like all of them, some may be ill-advised unless said owner is completely aware of what the ramifications are for a given mod. The WAI and radiator block in the Insight is pretty simple but not without the unknowing owners ability to cause some harm. I have seen and performed the same on the Prius II and FEH. MIMA in the Insight is probably violating some Honda internal pack constraints but some swear by it. A FAS switch in the Insight is for sure changing both the Insight’s FE and emissions profile. Hacking the ECU and various modules is where you had better know what you are doing. The Ford Engineers had drop dead limits on SoC range, rate of charge and/or assist as well as ICE emissions profiles that absolutely could not be violated. I can tell you that if those same engineers were allowed to break all those constraints, the Escape HEV could and would be an absolute stunner in the FTP75. I mean absolute as in 50 + mpg type numbers from that large a vehicle in the city test. I can also tell you why the simple EV switch in the Prius II was not allowed in the states. It changes the same cars FE and emissions profile in the FTP75 and the EPA will not currently allow user intervention to change either the Emissions or FE ratings.
___I do not know if this is what the OP was looking for or not? A quick look at the Bonneville or E-Drive’s Prius II’s shows what is possible but again, their was some intervention that may or may not have broken some of the absolute constraints the original manufacturers were forced by law or automobile design longevity to adhere too. Lighter weight wheels and lower LRR tires are a start but modding the ICE’s profile via ECU flash is where a very good OEM system integrator/designer/engineer should be heavily involved and that usually is not the back yard mechanic type anymore
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
#10
01-04-2006, 02:21 PM
Re: Who's modding their hybrids?
Mike, we are lucky to have xcel for techical and FE advice on this board indeed.
Many of us here came from the same performance background as you but at a time when the internet wasn't around to find answers to our questions. With regards to you keeping a car 7 yrs, the FEH and MMH come with warranties of 8yrs and 100,000 miles on the hybrid components. By the time these components are at a point of needing repair, technology and techical support on these forums will have advanced to people like yourself and I and I think we will be doing mods on the FEH similar to what you talk about.
The R&D cost thats been put into the FEH and other hybrids makes them worth more than people will spend. The auto industry has discounted them enough to be affordable. It took Ford a number of years from a concept to mass production to the public. The FEH is the first full hybrid SUV that can operate up to 40mph in the pure electric mode.
Its just a matter in a short time when mods are bolt off old, bolt new or rebuilt back on. Its almost there now completely at the dealerships. Mods will be with techical improvements for performance and FE.
Aftermarket parts may or maynot go away but advances will come for the older hybrids in the coming years. The price of cars will be controlled by suppy and demand. My thinking is, I would not waste my money now or anytime on a non hybrid investment that can't get the same FE as the same size Hybrid.
GaryG
Many of us here came from the same performance background as you but at a time when the internet wasn't around to find answers to our questions. With regards to you keeping a car 7 yrs, the FEH and MMH come with warranties of 8yrs and 100,000 miles on the hybrid components. By the time these components are at a point of needing repair, technology and techical support on these forums will have advanced to people like yourself and I and I think we will be doing mods on the FEH similar to what you talk about.
The R&D cost thats been put into the FEH and other hybrids makes them worth more than people will spend. The auto industry has discounted them enough to be affordable. It took Ford a number of years from a concept to mass production to the public. The FEH is the first full hybrid SUV that can operate up to 40mph in the pure electric mode.
Its just a matter in a short time when mods are bolt off old, bolt new or rebuilt back on. Its almost there now completely at the dealerships. Mods will be with techical improvements for performance and FE.
Aftermarket parts may or maynot go away but advances will come for the older hybrids in the coming years. The price of cars will be controlled by suppy and demand. My thinking is, I would not waste my money now or anytime on a non hybrid investment that can't get the same FE as the same size Hybrid.
GaryG
