BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Well I have to say that after doing some research to bash BioDiesel, I became somewhat of a convert. I just read an article that makes me ask is this too good to be true.

It's a long read, but worth it. Especially with gas prices going through the roof.

http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

enjoy and comment.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Three words: Biodiesel-electric hybrid.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

It all comes down to:

a) can B100 production be operated on 100% renewable energy?

b) can enough B100 ever be produced to meet the demands of the entire nation?

c) are people going to choose diesel engines in the US?

Hard to say for sure, but it's an interesting and promosing alternative fuel that will be part of the renewable energy lineup.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I'd add......

d) what will it cost for after-treatment to get a biodiesel (hybrid or otherwise) to meet Tier II Bin 5 Emissions?

Some estimates are as high as $5,000 per vehicle, assuming government approval to include a urea conversion catalyst.
That is the primary reason North America is not being flooded with European spec modern common rail diesels that outperform gasoline engines and get fuel economy approaching gasoline electric hybrids.

Peace,

Martin

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Schwa, most of your questions would be answered by reading the link that was provided in the first post. It indicates that it would be very possible to meet the fuel needs of a nation even as large as the USA. Not without a significant investment, but it states it could be as cheap as "only" $46 billion a year compared to $100-150 billion already spent on oil imports.

As for Martin's question about emissions, most of the most harmful emissions aren't going to be present in biodiesel, they're usually from chemicals still left over in petrodiesel after refining. Those chemicals should not be present at all in biodiesel. Besides which, many people pan the Tier II Bin 5 emission standard as ridiculous and way overboard since currently we have NO mechanism for getting old vehicles off the road.

The emissions standard for 10-15 year old vehicles is no where near as stringent as current vehicles, yet if we really cared about emissions, we would just have to make it illegal to register a vehicle more than 10 years old. Until we reach that day, it's pointless to push our emissions standards any further than 2003 standards, basically, because that's already many times cleaner than all previous generations of vehicles.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I've been trying to tell producers for more than a year about BioDiesel Hybrids and the fact that we can produce all the fuel we need from Algae grown around the Salton Sea.

If our politicans were not in the pocket of the oil industry, maybe they would get off their collective asses and do *SOMETHING*!

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

One step the government could take to encourage the production of efficient bio-diesel algae crops is to operate a 'pool' where algae farmers can sell to and producers can buy from.

The reason I still think the amount of fuel needed is still a valid question is because nothing has really been proven yet, those figures look good on paper but it's based on uncharted territory.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I've had this signature line for a while. Back in about 1998 I read "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank" -- a book written about two high school chemistry teachers that toured the country using nothing but used vegetable oil for fuel. I wanted to get a TDI and do that myself, but the titrations and the fact that it was theoretically possible to cause an explosion while making biodiesel discouraged me. But I live in the Dallas Ft. Worth area, where Willie Nelson brand Biodiesel is now available at several locations. I think it's only B20, though, I'm not sure.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I'm rather curious about the SVO conversions myself because that eliminates the need to make bio-diesel out of the used cooking oil or whatever you can get. Seems to require new injectors and maybe some other components, but basically isn't very complicated to convert to.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Thanks for reposting Mike Brigg's information. (Here is a different version of the information in PDF) It is a well written review regarding the potential of biodiesel. The current trend in biodiesel is indeed exciting. The demand is currently starting to out pace the supply and new plants are coming online at a quite pace. Even more exciting is the new chemistry that potentially can reduce cost and inprove both quality and yields. Not only are we seeing the fuels improve and the supply increase, but we'll begin to see a variety of new diesel cars come into the markets next year too. (primarily because of ULSD) This hopefully will provide an opportuntiy for some company to offer a diesel/hybrid and along with biodiesel blends and new emission technologies will finally make 'the more efficient' diesel engine a better choice when matching it to hybrid technology.

As was the "Six Million Dollar Man" slogan ... "we have the technology ...." :) Ok ... so I'm dating myself, hopefully there is some else that remembers Steve Austin! (Lee Majors)

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

a) according to the article, yes.
b) again, yes.
c) who cares, even if all the trucks go this route, it will be helpful.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

BTW... I contacted the author of the article and he said that the most fustrating part about this whole thing is that this type of research has been cut from being funded by the U.S. gov. He went on to say that other countries such as China and Australia have been the ones funding the research. How pathetic is that. I suggest to all you readers in support of this kind of research should write to your Senators.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Don't forget about trains and ships. Freight trains are among the dirtiest poluters in LA, so I've heard, and Biodiesel can be much cleaner than petro-diesel. This means you'd be shifting a huge portion of freight not only to a renewable source but to a cleaner fuel as well. Most all freight ships are diesel as well, which again are typically excluded from our on-road fuel stats, but if biodiesel was plentiful enough, it could be used in freight ships as well. Diesel is an extremely heavily used fuel for commerce - even if hardly any personally owned and operated vehicles adopted it in the next 5 years, the commercial applications are huge.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

well, the reason i thought biodiesel didn't stand a chance was that I wasn't aware of a source that was roughly 50% fuel. this algae is 50% oil, which makes it the most likely canidate for mass volumes of biodiesel. Soy is up there but not as good, and everything else is just not worth it for mass volume. meaning the amount of land and energy going in, doesn't come close to standard fuel costs.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Here's what I find interesting. Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the Diesel engine originally intended for the engine to be run on Bio-matter fuel.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Soy is not the optimum feedstock, but its the one American farmers are promoting and growing. The armtwisting in Washington is due to American Soybean farmers and their lobby and without them the biodiesel alternative would have a much more difficult road. All I know is that I prefer paying my local farmer than a few of those strangers in the middle east???

Tax credit for alternatives isn't the best way to promote domestic, renewable and clean fuels, but its the way our political wheels are operating at the moment. (easier to pass I suppose?) I personally would prefer a Petroleum Aquisition Adjustment (PAA) which would place a bit of the burden in securing overseas oil. (currently that cost per barrel is hidden in our income taxes) If the income taxes were reduced and the cost to 'aquire' the import oil was included in the per barrel price, we would be much farther ahead in developing alternatives and adoption of hybrid vehicles. Keeping petroleum cheap by using income taxes in securing oil 'because of national security' and our economy, gives all alternatives a more challenging playing field. I hope we can keep things going, but I fear that oil will once again slip back to levels causing Americans to become 'slothful' again waiting for the next oil crisis. (perhaps this one isn't over yet?) I only hope we are bright enough to continue our multi-pronged approach toward smarter use of energy.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I think it would be even cooler and better to make Bio-Diesel Hybrids. Half Bio-Diesel and half electrity that would be awesome.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

quite concur

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

My preference would be a plug-in series hybrid biodiesel or straight vegetable oil car. That basically covers everything from shorter trips with clean grid power to long journeys with the biodiesel genset running at fixed peak efficiency RPM to charge the battery and run the car. It would be expensive, no doubt... but more "worth it" than paying so much more for so much more fuel consumption on something like an H2. The more HV batteries out there the cheaper and more reliable they will become due to the influx of R&D funds. The government could encourage such development by granting the same kind of huge tax break that the H2 got (some $15k) without the added costs of securing more foreign oil.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlot...s/12683296.htm

Story about Ruth Miller of Durham's biodiesel/corn oil '85 Jetta, total cost for conversion $3,950. Her car was not that expensive either, I just wonder about the dependability of an 85 Jetta's engine.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I think one of the biggest roadblocks to widespread use of biodiesel is in the way it is reported on in the media (aside from the severe lack of reporting that is.)

Every story I have seen or read about biodiesel is one of those cute "interest" stories at the end of the news where they show the veggie-van guys filling up with fry oil and talk about how they converted their car to run on McDonalds waste. Well, you don't have to be a hippie freak to use biodiesel, and you don't have to convert your car! They always focus on that novelty story while completely ignoring the story about commercially produced biodiesel fuel which requires no vehicle conversion. They introduce people to the biodiesel concept by basically telling them they can't use it. If instead they talked about how commercial biodiesel is an accessible fuel that can be used straight up in any modern diesel engine, then people might believe it's worth considering. But as long as they sell it as a freak show story it will never get a foothold in the mainstream schema.

The only thing stopping me from using it is that the only supplier within 50 miles of me is a commercial fuel outfit that's only open 9-5 M-F and is located in an industrial part of town I never go to (and can't during bankers hours anyway because I'm working.) When I lived in Minnesota, the farmer coop gas stations sold it and I bought it all the time. I have considered getting my own tank and having it filled by truck but that's a bit impractical in the city. If I had a TDI I would do it in a heartbeat so both my truck and car could fuel from it.

I think its a great idea but we're going to have to work on the accessibility issue and the PR problem. People just don't know about it or they think it requires special vehicles or conversions. We have to combat this ignorance and misinformation before it will become a serious possibility.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

a. Probably not, but can pertolium fuels be produced entirely that way? No so is it a fair requirement?

b. MAybe maybe not, who cares? Every gallon of biodiesel saves that much petrol.

c. ONLY IF THEY DECIDE TO SELL THEM HERE. If they never make any then we won't buy them. Currently they say americans don't buy diesels so that means they don't want them. WABOS! People don't buy them because they're not available. Sure you can get a VW, MErcedes or Jeep Liberty. Those are not my kind of cars. Give me a small pickup like a tacoma with a little diesel engine and I'll buy it in a heartbeat. Same for a subaru wagon, or any other practical car that's not junk and I'll do it!

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I agree 100%. Too much "smells like French Fries" and "backs his car up to a restaurant" comment to make it seem more that a way out their solution.

On the otherhand ... things are moving forward at a blistering pace in getting biodiesel to public pumps. We are doing our part in Ohio and hopefully will see additional retail outlets around soon. (see the www.cincitdi.com/?biodiesel last several articles and you'll know what I mean) When the President includes biodiesel in his stump speeches, follows up with visits to new biodiesel facilites after elected and congress passes and energy bill that is extremely generous to blenders using biodiesel in there D2 ... we can't help but see some widespread availablity trickle down. Several states are now considering mandating a percentage of biodiesel and the one 'extremely bright spot' is that ULSD coming next year has low lubricity ... the trait biodiesel excels in. Blending these two fuels with new particulate filters and NOx system on super efficient diesels being built in Europe and now by Honda should be very good for the future of diesel technology. Now when they start to manufacture those little diesels as hybrids it should be a marriage that evey you hybrid owners will adopt. ;)

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

I would buy a turbo-diesel hybrid tomorrow if one was available. In case you have not read my, "BioDiesel Hybrids" go to goggle and search for: William Lucas Jones Hybrid. You'll get a couple of pages. It's evolved as we go along. Mitsubishi is doing a concept car using the wheel motors.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

in addition to my HCHII hybrid,
I have a bus that ran on Diesel and was "converted" to run on Waste Vegetable Oil. In Los Angeles, this is becoming quite popular and i recommend the website
www.lovecraftbiofuels.com
The conversion only took 1/2 day and now our bus runs better than ever!!!!!
this is quite sustainable and collecting your own waste oil is not a big deal if you are "hobby" oriented.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

First, I'd like to say welcome to this forum; I'm a new member. I've lurked for about a year. I don't currently own a hybrid, but have been interested in the technology and state of the art, in case we decide to purchase one in the future.

My high mileage vehicles are a 1998 VW Jetta TDI, and a motorcycle.

This discussion re: biodiesel interests me, as I've owned my TDI since I bought it new in 1998.

First, I don't want to unneccessarily upset those 'true believers' of biodiesel - I used to be one - but I have to make several points:
1) In theory, BD is a great renewable form of bio fuel; much more energy content than alcohol.
2) There are no manufacturers of diesel passenger cars and trucks in the US that authorize the use of a biodiesel blend of greater than 5%. There's a reason for this:
3) There are no standards of biodiesel manufacturing in the US. Nor is there a standards agency duly authorized to inspect and certify biodiesel is manufactured to a consistent standard. Type of oil, lubricity, etc are all CRITICAL to how a diesel engine will survive long-term. Not all veggie oils are the same. Nor are all biodiesel conversion processes the same. How much water is in the fuel? How much glycerin? How much filtering used in the process? How well was the veggie oil converted to synthetic diesel in the conversion process? What is the gelling temperature point?
4) Passenger car and light truck manufacturers are legally responsible for the long-term quality of their product. They will not sell a vehicle in the US to be authorized for use with high concentrations of biodiesel without these standards in place. And once in place, the engine systems have to be engineered to perform optimally - longevity (wear), emissions, performance, fuel economy - and thus the biodiesel must be engineered to perform similarly to petro-based fuel so that one design will work with both types of fuels.
5) The new ultra-low sulfur emissions systems being offered in upcoming diesel imports to the US are even less tolerant of biodiesel than were their predecessors. Ultra-low sulfur standards essentially has killed the future of biodiesel in the US. There was a reason the oil companies didn't really fight the new ultralow sulfur standards. These same companies already had ultralow sulfur refineries in Europe, so the technology was already in place.

EDIT: I understand that the new 'bluetech' emissions systems, in their various configurations (i.e. Mercedes uses urea injection, VW will not) are incompatible with bio diesel, and severe damage to these systems will result from the use of BD. So, sure; go ahead and run your 1978 VW rabbit diesel on bio. But in order for biodiesel to affect a significant change in the automotive culture, NEW CARS have got be compatible. They are not.

When there is a nationally recognized and enforced biodiesel manufacturing standard that is equivalent to those standards already in place in Europe, and the biodiesel industry is able to negotiate with the diesel vehicle manufacturers on a rational basis, then we may perhaps see biodiesel being used in new diesel passenger cars and light trucks.

Oh, BTW, I have no problem with do-it-yourselfers or small-scale businesses processing biodiesel and even selling it. But it's buyer beware. I will never put a blend of greater than 5% biodiesel in my car. It simply wasn't engineered to run optimally over hundreds of thousands of miles with a fuel of unknown manufacturing standard and content.

Maybe the tinkerers out there have no problem replacing engines with burnt pistons and ruined fuel injector pumps and nozzles; but I have better things to do with my time and property.

~Joe

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Excellent first post, JoeV!

Welcome to the group. We always appreciate other points of view, especially when presented so well.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Actually the biodiesel industry is not the hap-hazard cottage industry you perceive it to be. If you're talking about small-scale back alley do-it-yourself biodiesel makers then I absolutely agree that discretion is paramount.

However, many of your other assertions are either outdated or inaccurate. Please make note of the following:

1. There are commercial suppliers that have tried and true production processes and produce it on an industrial basis.

2. There is a biodiesel association which occupies itself with ensuring a quality product through accreditation of producers and other means. The National Biodiesel Board can be found at http://biodiesel.org/

3. There are, in fact, approved biodiesel standards and specifications that govern its quality and production put out by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM D6751 and ASTM 975). http://biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelf...ets/BDSpec.PDF

4. Most diesel engine manufacturers, including passenger car makers, have openly confirmed that they will not void warranties for vehicles using 5% biodiesel, some up to 20% and even 100%, especially if the fuel meets ASTM-D6751 specifications. Also don't forget that the american auto industry and the oil companies have been lobbying together for decades, so there's also good reason for them to be slow in adopting non-petrol fuels.
http://biodiesel.org/resources/fuelf...arranties.shtm

5. There have been quite a few studies using various blends of biodiesel up to B100 in vehicles over hundreds of thousands of miles, with success. Here is one of the resources I used when I made the switch to biodiesel for my Dodge/Cummins truck: http://web.missouri.edu/~schumacherl...ns_Engines.pdf
Several other research reports (and lots of other great biodiesel research and info) can be found here: http://www.utahbiodiesel.org/biodiesel_links.html

These resources may or may not change your comfort level with using Biodiesel, but they have made much progress in improving and ensuring the quality of biodiesel fuel.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

For me, Yes! With the continuing Oil Price increase (84$/Barrel) Biodiesel is really a money saver.


___________
jeep parts
gmc truck

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...725975,00.html

Sure, $$$ saved but bad for us as a species.

any comments on the article?

Why can't we just get on with electric transit using wind and solar? It's like we WANT to fail and keep burning our food...

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Here is another article on algae (biofuel)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science...oil/index.html

Looks like people are getting it... that per acre, algae produces many orders of magnitude more fuel then other so call biofuels out there.

Re: BioDiesel... a real alternative?
 

Sorry ... be away too long. Spotted the 'OPEC' lobby angle working its way into the forum as those wanting to see all biofuels equally. Its just not true. Corn ethanol, or even soy based biodiesel (currently used in the U.S. to build a market) is not the same as where most insiders see algae based biodiesel going.

Before discounting biodiesel be sure to consider where that budding industry is going ... and that they are working hard to move toward high yield oil crops (ie. algae) that will not be competing with feed and food. View some the PDF linked here, or keep an eye on the companies doing the next phase of renewables research.