I want to second xcel's assertion that recals depend on the driving.

I have never recaled on my nearly 5-year old Insight hypermiling on the freeway.

If I get caught on an afternoon commute on a hot summer day into stop-and-go traffic after doing somewhat aggressive driving, I've had recals.

This June, I was on I25 going from New Mexico to Denver. It was the 1st trip I recaled twice. I was going at the posted speed limit (75mph). The recals were going up the longer climbs or two climbs close together. Back in the flatlands, the recals are rare again.

 

I recently had this problem with recal. Luckily my dealership actualy had a technician who at least had enough hybrid knowledge/experience to know where to look to find the information on recal.
Part of the problem I was having was that one of my valves was misfunctioning causing a shuddering when I was driving in the 50-55 mph range at 55 mpg. I think that because I wasn't getting good gas usage because of the valve problem the car was relying on the IMA more than usual and so I was having recal almost weekly - sometimes twice a week.
Now that the valve has been replaced I'm not having recal happening.
IMHO, Honda should train their service departments to know more about their hybrids - they are shamefully un-educated. Even I (and I know nothing about cars) seem to know more about my hybrid than they do.

 

Wayne,

Good reading. Thanks for the links. One thing I noticed is that in the vast majority of the cases I have had time to look at (as you point out there are over 100 posts concerning similar issues), the recal events are an occaisional thing. Most folks say they seem them a couple of times, occasionally weekly, rarely daily.

When I'm on the road - and please remember that I live in the mountains - I see them CONSISTENTLY when the battery pack falls below a specific level (just below 1/2 on the SoC guage). As I stated before, if it is indeed a recalibration going on, one would expect that, at least for the duration of that specific outing if not longer, that a single recalibration would resolve the dropping issue and from then forward the SoC guage would read more or less normally as it should be mor eproperly calibrated to the state of the battery. However, I am seeing recalibrations many, many times DURING THE SAME DRIVE!!! This does not seem normal to me at all, even given the posts you have referenced that I have had a chance to read thus far.

I will continue reading these posts, as I would like to learn more abot this. Clearly the folks at Honda - even their tech people at Honda USA, don't have a clue about this stuff, and communicating with them is like is tantamount to need double-secret decoder rings. You can't talk directly to anyone with any knwoledge/authority.

But, as you have pointed me at some good reference material, I will do my best to see just how my situation compares to those of others. So far, there are similarities, but there are also significant differences.

= Ed =

 

Delta,

I'm glad that you have your recal situation under control. I'm sure I would be far less concerned about it (I probably would not be even getting recals) if I lived in the flatlands as well.

For me, driving steep hills and mountains is a DAILY event. I have to climb 8% grades just to get to the main artery from where my home is.

I'm also a bit amused by the people advising everyone to change their driving to minimize the usage of their assist in order to avoid recals and improve battery life. These are all clearly flatlanders. I'm sorry folks, but with 2 humans in a car, going up a even just a 5% grade, you don't get up it without assist unless you are willing to drive the whole way in first gear and **** off dozens (if not more) cars behind you as you crawl up a HIWAY at 15 MPH.

I'd also point out that they put the assist feature in these cars to be used - not to be avoided. If the feature doesn't work, since the car was designed to use it, they should fix the feature. Just MHO you understand.

To those who talk about changing driving habits I ask that you "drive a mile in my car" as it were before blaming it on my driving.

= Ed =

 

Ed,

I was looking forward to my first trip to the mountains this June to see how my 5-speed Insight did. I'm returning in August and want to try the sustained incline of I70 just west of Denver.

My conclusion: Mountains won't recal unless you have a long climb. I25 has some long climbs, a few pretty steep. Driving in Rocky Mountain National Park on Highways 34 & 36 were if anything more hilly. Difference was the climbs tended to be short and it was hard to drive over 60mph (tight turns, traffic...). This reduced the stress on the assist.

If it's not obvious, the Insight's assist was not designed to work as long as the Prius'. The Insight emphasizes a very efficient engine and lightweight body, while the Prius has a full hybrid engine that can run at a more constant speed. Both has it's pros and cons. I tend to think an HSD will do better in the mountains than an IMA, although my manual Insight did better than expected.

Honda emphasises an efficient gas engine - Toyota the recovery of wasted kinetic energy .

In regards to your assertions the assist was there to be used - without it I'd probably get killed in Dallas!

 

Well, I own a manual Insight. I'm also willing to bet that you were driving by yourself through the mountains. That makes a TREMENDOUS difference in the use of assist.

I'm not a dummy, and I drive my car very conservatively. I don't abuse the IMA, but where I live, and when I have my wife in the car (or another passenger), it is REQUIRED.

Your posts continue to imply that it is my driving that is at fault, and frankly I resent that. I have been driving manual transmission vehicles since 1971. The reason I ended up with an Insight instead of the Prius in the first place is that I have never owned anything but a manual transmission, and I was uncomfortable with CVT.

I'm so happy that YOUR conclusion is that "mountains won't recal". I guess that means it's definative and I should go bury my Insight in the back yard, hang my head in shame, and crawl into a hole next my myu buried Insight. No thank you!

Once again I'll say that driving through the mountians is NOT the same as daily driving in the mountains. Your vehicle is not subjected to the same driving patterns that mine has been over the last 4 years.

I'll end this post now before I post something that I'll regret later.

= Ed =

 

Ed,

My mountain experiences were just half a week. I would not doubt that if I spent several months, I'd be experiencing many of the same things you have. My experience was not comprehensive.

My going on and on that "it was not as bad as I thought it would be" somehow got interperted as saying your driving was bad. I apologize if it seemed that way. I never intended it to come off that way.

I was attempting to say I25 was tougher on my assist than Hwy 34 & 36. I25 had longer climbs and higher speeds.

I'm very curious as to how my Insight would behave in the mountains as my 1988 CRX HF was unable to leave Denver west on I70 faster than 50mph due to the incline. In other words, it probably did not perform as well as the Insight.

Again, I apologize for my last post seeming like a judgement on your driving.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Delta. I too am sorry about the whole misunderstanding.

One additional point about all of this: Many of the posts that Wayne (excal) referred to commented on how trying to keep the battery cool by keeping the AC on (the battery is vented behind the passenger seat) help resolve these problems. Sadly, when it's hot and you are driving hills, using teh AC does increase the load on the assist (you can watch it and verify this yourself), so it's a catch 22 in those scenarios. I've developed a pattern of switching between AC off and AC Econ as I go up and down hills in hot weather as a poor man's compromise.

One poster did talk about mounting some PC pancake fans in teh vent hole and hooking up the fans to the cigarette lighter plug. This sounds interesting to me, and I may look into it. Again, it's too bad that Honda hasn't adressed these issues.

= Ed =

 

Hi EdRotberg:

___I am glad you are finding the resources useful …

___With that, I would not want to be in your situation given the location. It is one thing for us flatlanders as you say to be able to avoid the pack throughout all driving cycles and another entirely for someone in your locale. Either way, I do know how to climb 6 - 7% grades in an Insight 5-speed without assist while maintaining 19 - 20 of 20 bars on the SoC and it is not in first gear at 15 mph. I am in the truck climbing lane with the emergencies on running second gear at > 2,700 RPM just below VTEC engagement and just above any assist for FE purposes. If you are driving 8% grades and you do not have a truck lane to be in, heaven help you. That road would dangerous for any number of other vehicles as well. I never drove my “Little Beauty” into VTEC engagement that I remember but I bet a second gear, low 4,000 RPM, VTEC engaged, steady climb might yield similar results (no assist) as my experiments at an acceptable speed for you although you would not be receiving 50 - 60 mpg during the climb is all. It sucks to have to attempt a change in habits after all these years but either the pack will degrade in such a fashion that an IMA MIL is finally thrown (then you get a new pack and maybe a controller module and inverter assembly) or you continue to live with multiple recals per climb per your description.

___I am not telling you how to drive but am suggesting alternatives to your current habits given an obvious degraded pack from new. I am also attempting to give you a workaround to achieve maximum FE, safety, and maintain your pack’s longevity in the process. Hopefully you will have an IMA MIL thrown and you will be done with this sometime within the next 6 -12 months. Once you receive a new pack and possibly a controller and maybe inverter, you will either protect that pack as described or suffer a continually degrading pack until this scenario happens all over again some years down the road except you are without a warranty to cover your rear the second go around. Packs are simply not meant to climb and unfortunately for us all, that is the #1 Honda hybrid’s secret that no one warned anyone about ahead of time.

___The HCH w/ CVT has much improved upon HW and SW algorithms to protect that pack from the abuse of a climb but it is not perfect. The 5-speed HCH’ers have better pack management SW as well but they can get into their packs just as hot if they so choose as well. The Prius I and II drivers are better protected with a more tightly controlled assist and regen threshold(s). I believe the Toyota HSD system works as follows after reading the US lab reports on it. If the SW sees a SoC either below a given threshold or at a rate that will lead to that threshold, in comes the charge/regen and to hell with assist thus degrading your performance somewhat. Another item is Honda’s D-Cell arrangement vs. the US Prius I and II’s prismatic setup. There simply is no way to measure an individual D-Cell’s cap or discharge rate the way the cells are arranged in the Honda system and the Toyota layout might be a bit more manageable is all. All of the above being said, everyone still has to maintain a pack management technique while the car is parked out in the sun during the heat of summer. With no air flow around those giant packs while sitting in 160 + ambient of a buttoned up Prius I, II, Insight, HCH, AH, RXh, HH, Escape HEV, pack degradation is bound to happen imho. Crack those windows or get her inside is about all I can add.

___Good Luck and I hope it all works out for you in the end.

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

I was fortunate not to have needed the A/C much in Colorado. Besides the air is dry. I toggle the A/C a lot myself. My dream car would allow me to roll down the window and set the fans to blast the hot air out from a remote while walking to the car....

My baseline for bad mountain experiences is my 1988 CRX HF when it was leaving Denver westbound on I70. I had to rev it in 3rd gear and still could manage only 50mph. I bet the Insight would do better. There is also a part of I5 around LA that is a very hard climb.