09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
#11
02-19-2017, 07:12 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Do you mean Ford has a special charger? How much is it? How to get one?
#12
02-19-2017, 07:45 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Dealer use only. They have to diagnose the issue, request the charger and properly apply it. They will likely charge you several hours of labor.
#13
02-20-2017, 05:13 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Of course I used a timed charge. 0.1C for 16 hours would be excessive and likely generate too much heat since there's no active cooling (I've seen 130°F temps in low current NiMH charging when there's no flow in the case). An attempt to rely on a dV signal from 250 cells in series would be absurd if even possible. In my experience dV is only truly reliable at or above 1C, and that would require in the vicinity of 2000W of charge power. I don't think you'll find a NiMH charger outside of an EV1 or RAV4 that can handle NiMH charging needs for that many cells.
Honestly, what's your point? That's a silly question. Are you a Tech that has taken offense to my comments?
It was not my goal to fully charge the battery given that they were all from a 0% SoC. The sticks accessible from the top of the pack were all with .01V of each other and <1V/cell indicating uniform discharge throughout the pack. I did multiple timed discharges of decreasing current totaling less than 6000mAh of input. I monitored temperature of the pack frequently with an IR gun and FLIR One IR camera. Nothing ever got over 78°F. Given the inefficiency inherent in low current charging, it still wasn't near full. As I approached exceeded a computed 70% SoC, I limited the charge to 200mA to minimize the potential for heat.
Frankly, all of that was unnecessary. At those voltages, the PS was limited to about 1A. A simple 1A charge for 1 hr would have put the battery in a safe range to start the car.
The harness I fabricated mates with a HV LED PSU with 350mA output. If this ever happens again, he merely needs to charge for 4 hours, and that should put the battery in a safe range for starting.
Honestly, what's your point? That's a silly question. Are you a Tech that has taken offense to my comments?
It was not my goal to fully charge the battery given that they were all from a 0% SoC. The sticks accessible from the top of the pack were all with .01V of each other and <1V/cell indicating uniform discharge throughout the pack. I did multiple timed discharges of decreasing current totaling less than 6000mAh of input. I monitored temperature of the pack frequently with an IR gun and FLIR One IR camera. Nothing ever got over 78°F. Given the inefficiency inherent in low current charging, it still wasn't near full. As I approached exceeded a computed 70% SoC, I limited the charge to 200mA to minimize the potential for heat.
Frankly, all of that was unnecessary. At those voltages, the PS was limited to about 1A. A simple 1A charge for 1 hr would have put the battery in a safe range to start the car.
The harness I fabricated mates with a HV LED PSU with 350mA output. If this ever happens again, he merely needs to charge for 4 hours, and that should put the battery in a safe range for starting.
No, I'm not a Ford Tech, I was into custom flashlights, if you are into that, you are into batteries. There are only three ways to charge a Ni-MH cell, 0.1C timmed, -dV and dT. Charges using dT never worked properly. If the cells aren't getting warm, they aren't charging, 130F is high but overly high, >140F is a problem. Yes, -dV seldom works properly below 0.5C.
Unless you know how the Ford Hybrid Battery Charger works, I wouldn't rule out -dV. Unless there are provisions for balance taps.
Last edited by wptski; 02-20-2017 at 05:20 AM.
#14
02-20-2017, 07:40 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
I have no idea who Willard West is.
Your questions seemed to have an agenda. Probably just my paranoia.
Given that the FEH or MMH or any other HEV NiMH battery is never intended to be fully charged, I doubt the Ford charger does that especially given that the Ford tech indicated that it doesn't take very long (minutes not hours), and it's supposed to bring the battery to a usable state so the car can start and charge itself. It's purpose is to replace the on-board "jump" charger that was removed after 2007.
I have never seen a NiMH system that had provisions for balance taps, but they all monitor taps. Most Toyota and Honda systems do it every 12 cells (except highlander - 16 cells). I don't know the granularity of the FEH, but just based on the size of the wire bundle, I bet it's every 10 cells. This could also be used for dV detection, but you're still talking about charging at 6A/350V to reliably detect -dV. Even then, it's only confirmed the one tap is at -dV.
You omitted 0.3C for 5 hours if from a known discharged state.
If you have a lot of experience with NiMH charging, you're reasonably familiar with the target battery, and you know the current state of charge, there are a lot more options than 0.1C/16hrs. I recently charged a battery at 828mA for 9 hours with active cooling because I wanted exactly that computed amount in it based on the known SoC, the time available, and the known performance/capacity of the cells involved. At the end of the charge, the battery was only a few degrees above ambient.
I have found that 1.3X rated capacity is an excellent target input at any rate up to 2C - again for cells with which one has intimate knowledge of their actual performance.
You may not be familiar with what Honda IMA folks have been doing for years (since about 2011) - 350mA long duration (24-30 hours) charging with cooling. Honda "D" cells are horribly susceptible to SoC imbalance. The worse NiMH system usually spawns the initial innovation, hence grid charging was spawned. I merely applied those techniques.
Given that all cells were discharged to right at 1V/cell, I wasn't at all worried about overcharging. I made a pseudo-attempt to top balance, but the fear from lack of cooling caused me to fall short.
Regardless, after the charge, the car operated flawlessly and has done so for the last couple months.
Your questions seemed to have an agenda. Probably just my paranoia.
Given that the FEH or MMH or any other HEV NiMH battery is never intended to be fully charged, I doubt the Ford charger does that especially given that the Ford tech indicated that it doesn't take very long (minutes not hours), and it's supposed to bring the battery to a usable state so the car can start and charge itself. It's purpose is to replace the on-board "jump" charger that was removed after 2007.
I have never seen a NiMH system that had provisions for balance taps, but they all monitor taps. Most Toyota and Honda systems do it every 12 cells (except highlander - 16 cells). I don't know the granularity of the FEH, but just based on the size of the wire bundle, I bet it's every 10 cells. This could also be used for dV detection, but you're still talking about charging at 6A/350V to reliably detect -dV. Even then, it's only confirmed the one tap is at -dV.
You omitted 0.3C for 5 hours if from a known discharged state.
If you have a lot of experience with NiMH charging, you're reasonably familiar with the target battery, and you know the current state of charge, there are a lot more options than 0.1C/16hrs. I recently charged a battery at 828mA for 9 hours with active cooling because I wanted exactly that computed amount in it based on the known SoC, the time available, and the known performance/capacity of the cells involved. At the end of the charge, the battery was only a few degrees above ambient.
I have found that 1.3X rated capacity is an excellent target input at any rate up to 2C - again for cells with which one has intimate knowledge of their actual performance.
You may not be familiar with what Honda IMA folks have been doing for years (since about 2011) - 350mA long duration (24-30 hours) charging with cooling. Honda "D" cells are horribly susceptible to SoC imbalance. The worse NiMH system usually spawns the initial innovation, hence grid charging was spawned. I merely applied those techniques.
Given that all cells were discharged to right at 1V/cell, I wasn't at all worried about overcharging. I made a pseudo-attempt to top balance, but the fear from lack of cooling caused me to fall short.
Regardless, after the charge, the car operated flawlessly and has done so for the last couple months.
#15
02-20-2017, 04:48 PM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Never heard of the 0.3C for five hours before.
Even if that's true if the pack is never fully charged under normal use that doesn't mean that the Ford charger doesn't charge the pack fully something that doesn't happen that often under normal use. Ni-MH cells still suffer from voltage depression but it's easier to cure.
I've read years ago that one major company that sold Ni-MH cells had some on trickle charge for two years with no damage.
EDIT:
I just remembered that although the Hybrid does do pereodic calibrate cycle, it's probably a full discharge and then back to normal operation again.
Even if that's true if the pack is never fully charged under normal use that doesn't mean that the Ford charger doesn't charge the pack fully something that doesn't happen that often under normal use. Ni-MH cells still suffer from voltage depression but it's easier to cure.
I've read years ago that one major company that sold Ni-MH cells had some on trickle charge for two years with no damage.
EDIT:
I just remembered that although the Hybrid does do pereodic calibrate cycle, it's probably a full discharge and then back to normal operation again.
Last edited by wptski; 02-21-2017 at 05:12 AM.
#16
02-21-2017, 05:42 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
I'm going on what the Ford tech said (the one trained on it from the WI dealer where the car was purchased, not the tech that failed to use the equipment properly). It's used for only a short period, and it's intended to replace the jump start that was removed - which never charged the battery to full or anywhere near it in 8 minutes - just enough to get the battery to sufficient SoC to start the ICE.
On a self-discharged battery, voltage depression is nearly non-existent.
I don't know the Ford calibration algorithm, but hopefully, it includes a trip to near 100% SoC as balancing in the 80-100% range is far more effective as that's really the only place one can truly balance SoC without massive cell reversal.
Gen1 Prius had a routine that would drive the SoC to 100% @ about 8A and then discharge it to below 10% followed by a charge to operating range. Reports of these are rare. I've never heard of a Gen2 or any other Toyota hybrid having this cycle.
On a self-discharged battery, voltage depression is nearly non-existent.
I don't know the Ford calibration algorithm, but hopefully, it includes a trip to near 100% SoC as balancing in the 80-100% range is far more effective as that's really the only place one can truly balance SoC without massive cell reversal.
Gen1 Prius had a routine that would drive the SoC to 100% @ about 8A and then discharge it to below 10% followed by a charge to operating range. Reports of these are rare. I've never heard of a Gen2 or any other Toyota hybrid having this cycle.
#17
02-21-2017, 06:38 PM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Mine has charged to near 100% on one occasion that I know of (the wife drives the vehicle most of the time). It must have been a recalibration event. The ICE just would not shut off no matter what I did. I was monitoring the SoC and only after it got near 100% did the ICE finally shutoff. The vehicle behaved normally after this.
#18
02-26-2018, 11:16 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Hello, I am interested in purchasing a 09 FEH with very low milage that has sat for 8 months and was told "High Voltage Battery is too low in voltage to allow the vehicle to start." I've called around the Ford dealers in my area (Eastern PA) and they are uniformly quoting me "$8,000 - $10,000+" for REPLACING the battery and are telling me that it's better to go that route. After reading your post, however, I am encouraged to FINDING someone who can and/will recharge the battery. Would you know of anyone with your experience and knowledge this neck of wood please?
#19
02-26-2018, 11:37 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Hello, I am interested in purchasing a 09 FEH with very low milage that has sat for 8 months and was told "High Voltage Battery is too low in voltage to allow the vehicle to start." I've called around the Ford dealers in my area (Eastern PA) and they are uniformly quoting me "$8,000 - $10,000+" for REPLACING the battery and are telling me that it's better to go that route. After reading your post, however, I am encouraged to FINDING someone who can and/will recharge the battery. Would you know of anyone with your experience and knowledge this neck of wood please?
Second, you're considering purchasing a vehicle you can't even drive to confirm that anything works.
1) hybrid battery may be bad even if it can be recharged to the point it will start
2) you have no way of confirming any of the other systems function.
You may need nothing more than a recharge of the hybrid battery, or you may need thousands of dollars of repairs across other systems.
I think your best best is to bail.
#20
02-26-2018, 11:44 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Hello, I am interested in purchasing a 09 FEH with very low milage that has sat for 8 months and was told "High Voltage Battery is too low in voltage to allow the vehicle to start." I've called around the Ford dealers in my area (Eastern PA) and they are uniformly quoting me "$8,000 - $10,000+" for REPLACING the battery and are telling me that it's better to go that route. After reading your post, however, I am encouraged to FINDING someone who can and/will recharge the battery. Would you know of anyone with your experience and knowledge this neck of wood please?
