Article - Defroster, Air-Conditioning Put Dent in Hybrids' Mileage
#1
02-15-2005, 06:45 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Yucca Valley, CA (Near Palm Springs)
Posts: 245
Article - Defroster, Air-Conditioning Put Dent in Hybrids' Mileage
Defroster, Air-Conditioning Put Dent in Hybrids' Mileage
Detroit Free Press
by Mark Phelan
Feb 03 '05
Detroit Free Press
by Mark Phelan
Feb 03 '05
There's a loophole in how most hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles work, and countless gallons of gasoline are draining out of it.
Running the front defroster increases their fuel consumption drastically, as I discovered while driving three of them during Detroit's typically cold winter. Setting the air-conditioning on maximum cool has the same effect, so the problem is not limited to northern regions.
None of the automakers admits to knowing how much this increases the hybrids' fuel consumption, but one estimate is that drivers use the defroster or max the air conditioner 10 percent of the time behind the wheel each year.
The Ford Escape SUV, Honda Accord and Toyota Prius hybrids all fell far short of the fuel economy figures the companies advertise.
Hybrids, which use electric motors to supplement their gasoline engines, have won wide acclaim for the extremely high mileage they achieve in tests by the Environmental Protection Agency.
According to the EPA, the Prius, the best-selling hybrid, gets 60 miles per gallon in city driving and 51 m.p.g. on the highway. The Escape is rated at 36 and 31, the Accord 29 and 37.
The hybrids fell as much as 40 percent below the EPA mileage figures for combined city and highway driving during my recent test, which covered a mix of Detroit-area roads.
"This is clearly a drawback," said Joe Phillippi, principal of AutoTrends Consulting, a New Jersey firm. "The vast majority of the country is affected."
The Escape, the largest of the three vehicles, did fairly well, giving me 21.6 m.p.g.
The Accord, which Honda promotes both for its fuel efficiency and the added performance of its electric motor, got 20.4 m.p.g. My colleague Tony Swan averaged just over 27 m.p.g. using the defroster only occasionally in the Accord hybrid.
The Prius' fuel economy suffered the most, but particularly cold and slippery weather conditions certainly contributed to its 22.8 m.p.g.
A sophisticated feature that shuts the gasoline engine off when it's not needed is one of the key reasons the vehicles score so well with the EPA, but the Escape, Accord and Civic all lose that ability when the front defroster is on. I have tested the Civic before but did not drive it for this evaluation.
Nobody really knows how much of the time drivers use the front defroster or max AC. The best guess comes from Ford, which has 30-year-old research that says it's about 10 percent of the time for all drivers in the United States.
The Prius can operate its front defroster when the gasoline engine is off, but cold weather keeps the engine from shutting down as often and for as long as it does when the defroster is not engaged.
All three vehicles I drove probably got somewhat better fuel economy in my test than if I'd been driving conventional models, but this is just the latest example of hybrids falling short of the hype that surrounds them.
Even some very enthusiastic hybrid owners have become frustrated by the cars' failure to delivery fuel economy matching the EPA numbers.
"All I want is a **** car that lives up to its promise and that won't make my wife repeatedly tell me I'm a big fool," Civic hybrid owner Pete Blackshaw wrote in his online blog,
http://www.hybridbuzz.blogspot.com.
Blackshaw of Cincinnati likes his car but writes that he's still nearly 15 m.p.g. below the advertised mileage. "All in all, despite Honda's good intentions, very disappointing."
Salespeople I talked to who specialize in hybrids at Detroit-area Ford, Honda and Toyota dealerships were either unaware of or misinformed about how using the defroster and air-conditioning affects fuel economy.
"Hybrids are never going to hit the EPA numbers," said Jim Hall, vice president for industry analysis at consultant AutoPacific. "It doesn't surprise me. I think it's a nonissue, though," since most people get worse fuel economy than the EPA mileage posted alongside the price on every car's window sticker.
A federal regulation sets standards for how quickly the front defroster must be able to clear ice from a windshield, said Tom Watson, the Ford engineer who developed the Escape hybrid's powertrain. The front defroster uses fluid from the engine to heat air in cold temperatures and runs the air conditioner to clear the windshield on cool, clammy days.
Losing the engine's stop-start ability "does make for a reduction in fuel economy," he said.
The owners of hybrid cars change their driving habits to increase fuel economy, said Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of the Green Car Journal, a San Luis Obispo, Calif.-based magazine specializing in alternative fueled vehicles.
"If your goal in getting a hybrid is maximum fuel economy, you will learn over time the idiosyncrasies of the car and the technology," he said.
Another idiosyncrasy affected the Prius I drove. Not only did the engine shut down very infrequently, but it often stopped and started several times during a single stoplight. Under ideal circumstances, the engine shuts down when the car comes to a stop and doesn't start again until you depress the accelerator.
Despite that, the Prius' ability to walk and chew gum while other hybrids stumble demonstrates that "Toyota's not just on the cutting edge of this technology, they're sharpening it," said Rich Homan, executive editor of the auto Web site Inside Line.
Surprisingly, the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra so-called mild hybrid pickups, which have been criticized as less technically sophisticated than the other hybrids, can go into engine-shutdown mode with the front defrost or maximum air-conditioning engaged, like the Prius can.
"A lot of people put a lot of thought into coming up with our control strategies," said Connie Scarpelli, GM marketing manager for alternate fuel vehicles. "We're very proud of what they accomplished."
Running the front defroster increases their fuel consumption drastically, as I discovered while driving three of them during Detroit's typically cold winter. Setting the air-conditioning on maximum cool has the same effect, so the problem is not limited to northern regions.
None of the automakers admits to knowing how much this increases the hybrids' fuel consumption, but one estimate is that drivers use the defroster or max the air conditioner 10 percent of the time behind the wheel each year.
The Ford Escape SUV, Honda Accord and Toyota Prius hybrids all fell far short of the fuel economy figures the companies advertise.
Hybrids, which use electric motors to supplement their gasoline engines, have won wide acclaim for the extremely high mileage they achieve in tests by the Environmental Protection Agency.
According to the EPA, the Prius, the best-selling hybrid, gets 60 miles per gallon in city driving and 51 m.p.g. on the highway. The Escape is rated at 36 and 31, the Accord 29 and 37.
The hybrids fell as much as 40 percent below the EPA mileage figures for combined city and highway driving during my recent test, which covered a mix of Detroit-area roads.
"This is clearly a drawback," said Joe Phillippi, principal of AutoTrends Consulting, a New Jersey firm. "The vast majority of the country is affected."
The Escape, the largest of the three vehicles, did fairly well, giving me 21.6 m.p.g.
The Accord, which Honda promotes both for its fuel efficiency and the added performance of its electric motor, got 20.4 m.p.g. My colleague Tony Swan averaged just over 27 m.p.g. using the defroster only occasionally in the Accord hybrid.
The Prius' fuel economy suffered the most, but particularly cold and slippery weather conditions certainly contributed to its 22.8 m.p.g.
A sophisticated feature that shuts the gasoline engine off when it's not needed is one of the key reasons the vehicles score so well with the EPA, but the Escape, Accord and Civic all lose that ability when the front defroster is on. I have tested the Civic before but did not drive it for this evaluation.
Nobody really knows how much of the time drivers use the front defroster or max AC. The best guess comes from Ford, which has 30-year-old research that says it's about 10 percent of the time for all drivers in the United States.
The Prius can operate its front defroster when the gasoline engine is off, but cold weather keeps the engine from shutting down as often and for as long as it does when the defroster is not engaged.
All three vehicles I drove probably got somewhat better fuel economy in my test than if I'd been driving conventional models, but this is just the latest example of hybrids falling short of the hype that surrounds them.
Even some very enthusiastic hybrid owners have become frustrated by the cars' failure to delivery fuel economy matching the EPA numbers.
"All I want is a **** car that lives up to its promise and that won't make my wife repeatedly tell me I'm a big fool," Civic hybrid owner Pete Blackshaw wrote in his online blog,
http://www.hybridbuzz.blogspot.com.
Blackshaw of Cincinnati likes his car but writes that he's still nearly 15 m.p.g. below the advertised mileage. "All in all, despite Honda's good intentions, very disappointing."
Salespeople I talked to who specialize in hybrids at Detroit-area Ford, Honda and Toyota dealerships were either unaware of or misinformed about how using the defroster and air-conditioning affects fuel economy.
"Hybrids are never going to hit the EPA numbers," said Jim Hall, vice president for industry analysis at consultant AutoPacific. "It doesn't surprise me. I think it's a nonissue, though," since most people get worse fuel economy than the EPA mileage posted alongside the price on every car's window sticker.
A federal regulation sets standards for how quickly the front defroster must be able to clear ice from a windshield, said Tom Watson, the Ford engineer who developed the Escape hybrid's powertrain. The front defroster uses fluid from the engine to heat air in cold temperatures and runs the air conditioner to clear the windshield on cool, clammy days.
Losing the engine's stop-start ability "does make for a reduction in fuel economy," he said.
The owners of hybrid cars change their driving habits to increase fuel economy, said Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of the Green Car Journal, a San Luis Obispo, Calif.-based magazine specializing in alternative fueled vehicles.
"If your goal in getting a hybrid is maximum fuel economy, you will learn over time the idiosyncrasies of the car and the technology," he said.
Another idiosyncrasy affected the Prius I drove. Not only did the engine shut down very infrequently, but it often stopped and started several times during a single stoplight. Under ideal circumstances, the engine shuts down when the car comes to a stop and doesn't start again until you depress the accelerator.
Despite that, the Prius' ability to walk and chew gum while other hybrids stumble demonstrates that "Toyota's not just on the cutting edge of this technology, they're sharpening it," said Rich Homan, executive editor of the auto Web site Inside Line.
Surprisingly, the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra so-called mild hybrid pickups, which have been criticized as less technically sophisticated than the other hybrids, can go into engine-shutdown mode with the front defrost or maximum air-conditioning engaged, like the Prius can.
"A lot of people put a lot of thought into coming up with our control strategies," said Connie Scarpelli, GM marketing manager for alternate fuel vehicles. "We're very proud of what they accomplished."
Last edited by Jason; 02-16-2005 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Quote tags.
#2
02-15-2005, 08:57 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
Man, people can have an ill-informed chip on their shoulders. Of course the A/C compressor is going to use more fuel.
More silly quotes I noticed:
"None of the automakers admits to knowing how much this increases the hybrids' fuel consumption"
Why not ask the people who drive them? I've noticed about 4-6MPG drop from my 5-9MPG over EPA figures.
"The hybrids fell as much as 40 percent below the EPA mileage figures for combined city and highway driving during my recent test, which covered a mix of Detroit-area roads."
"This is clearly a drawback"
""The vast majority of the country is affected.""
Yes, that's what happens when you gas it all the time, compressor or not.
"this is just the latest example of hybrids falling short of the hype that surrounds them."
Hype? Some of us are doing better than 60MPG in a Civic and better than 90 in an Insight.
""Hybrids are never going to hit the EPA numbers," said Jim Hall, vice president for industry analysis at consultant AutoPacific."
I wonder what exactly he's been analyzing?
"The owners of hybrid cars change their driving habits to increase fuel economy, said Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of the Green Car Journal,"
Does this guy realize that if everyone changed their habits no matter what they drive it would increase? Does the fact that a hybrid encourages good habits put them into a bad light? Sheeeesh!
"while other hybrids stumble demonstrates that "Toyota's not just on the cutting edge of this technology, they're sharpening it,"
Where does he get this? While both use very different technologies, both have their own set of good & bad points.
"The Prius' fuel economy suffered the most, but particularly cold and slippery weather conditions certainly contributed to its 22.8 m.p.g."
Hear that folks, the Prius only gets 22.8MPG if it's cold & slippery.
I wonder if this author ever found the plug?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
How about this statement of mine:
It has been discovered that there is a potentially deadly substance in America's drinking water, and that is dihydrogen oxide. While the Administration continues to ignore this fact, thousands of people die each year because of this substance, which is deliberately added to our drinking supply.
Jimmy Jones, an accredited national chemist says "dihydrogen oxide kills thousands more people than even Chlorine, which is also added to our nation’s water supply"
A local water authority recently quoted "Too much dihydrogen oxide in too short of time can quickly overwhelm the human body, causing a quick, sudden unexpected death." He went on to say that this actually occurs daily but goes on widely unreported.
The Congressman, when cornered by our reporters, finally admitted this substance causes even more deaths every year than automobile accidents. He went further to say that they are not willing to deal with this dangerous issue at this time. If not now, then when? How many more people will have to die?
This last statement of mine is actually 100% factual but I wouldn't go writing your congressman about it!
Thanks Mike, your post was an entertaining read. It seems to be a continuation of today's media in general, and that is to seek only dissatisfied people, blow it up, then toss in a carrot or two for good measure and then print it as factual.
The sad thing is that many people will read this and believe it.
More silly quotes I noticed:
"None of the automakers admits to knowing how much this increases the hybrids' fuel consumption"
Why not ask the people who drive them? I've noticed about 4-6MPG drop from my 5-9MPG over EPA figures.
"The hybrids fell as much as 40 percent below the EPA mileage figures for combined city and highway driving during my recent test, which covered a mix of Detroit-area roads."
"This is clearly a drawback"
""The vast majority of the country is affected.""
Yes, that's what happens when you gas it all the time, compressor or not.
"this is just the latest example of hybrids falling short of the hype that surrounds them."
Hype? Some of us are doing better than 60MPG in a Civic and better than 90 in an Insight.
""Hybrids are never going to hit the EPA numbers," said Jim Hall, vice president for industry analysis at consultant AutoPacific."
I wonder what exactly he's been analyzing?
"The owners of hybrid cars change their driving habits to increase fuel economy, said Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of the Green Car Journal,"
Does this guy realize that if everyone changed their habits no matter what they drive it would increase? Does the fact that a hybrid encourages good habits put them into a bad light? Sheeeesh!
"while other hybrids stumble demonstrates that "Toyota's not just on the cutting edge of this technology, they're sharpening it,"
Where does he get this? While both use very different technologies, both have their own set of good & bad points.
"The Prius' fuel economy suffered the most, but particularly cold and slippery weather conditions certainly contributed to its 22.8 m.p.g."
Hear that folks, the Prius only gets 22.8MPG if it's cold & slippery.
I wonder if this author ever found the plug?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
How about this statement of mine:
It has been discovered that there is a potentially deadly substance in America's drinking water, and that is dihydrogen oxide. While the Administration continues to ignore this fact, thousands of people die each year because of this substance, which is deliberately added to our drinking supply.
Jimmy Jones, an accredited national chemist says "dihydrogen oxide kills thousands more people than even Chlorine, which is also added to our nation’s water supply"
A local water authority recently quoted "Too much dihydrogen oxide in too short of time can quickly overwhelm the human body, causing a quick, sudden unexpected death." He went on to say that this actually occurs daily but goes on widely unreported.
The Congressman, when cornered by our reporters, finally admitted this substance causes even more deaths every year than automobile accidents. He went further to say that they are not willing to deal with this dangerous issue at this time. If not now, then when? How many more people will have to die?
This last statement of mine is actually 100% factual but I wouldn't go writing your congressman about it!
Thanks Mike, your post was an entertaining read. It seems to be a continuation of today's media in general, and that is to seek only dissatisfied people, blow it up, then toss in a carrot or two for good measure and then print it as factual.
The sad thing is that many people will read this and believe it.
Last edited by Hot_Georgia_2004; 02-15-2005 at 09:38 PM.
#3
02-16-2005, 06:15 AM
That article is pure garbage........
I sent Mr. Phelan an e-mail the day after I first saw that article about three weeks ago. He is misinformed and did a bad thing to the image of Hybrids with his ridiculous article. Here is the text of the e-mail I sent him. No reply from him yet:
"Your article on Hybrids MPG was flawed and stories like this are hurting Hybrid sales and thus the environment. Your story was not balanced at all, it was more an attack on the Hybrids, using incorrect testing methods.
As an owner of a 2004 manual tranny Honda Civic Hybrid, I speak from experience. I have owned the car for almost 7 months, and I am achieving EPA numbers for the first 9,000 miles of ownership. Many drivers are FAR FAR exceeding EPA numbers in their hybrids. Browse on over to greenhybrid.com and look at the Real Mileage Database. You will see the great MPG numbers this fabulous and amazing technology allows drivers to achieve, something never before possible in 4 door cars, diesel or otherwise, until Hybrids hit the USA. There is one driver average 92 MPG over the life of his Honda Insight !!
All cars suffer in the cold of winter, not just hybrids, you know that, right? Cars do not reach peak MPG efficiency until they warm up and reach peak operating temps. Hybrids included. And running the A/C compressor in winter puts double whammy on MPG figures, which is where your defroster problem came into play.
Are you aware that there is a way to disable the A/C compressor with the defroster on in a Civic Hybrid? That eliminates the A/C penalty for defrosting.
I think you should do your research and write ANOTHER article that highlights all the benefits of Hybrids and how there are THOUSANDS of hybrid owners who are learning to drive for max MPG and exceeding EPA numbers."
He has some sort of anti-Hybrid agenda up his sleeve. Maybe he's taking money under the table from some of the companies who do not have Hybrids to bad mouth them....? All I know is that he peed me off bigtime !!!
"Your article on Hybrids MPG was flawed and stories like this are hurting Hybrid sales and thus the environment. Your story was not balanced at all, it was more an attack on the Hybrids, using incorrect testing methods.
As an owner of a 2004 manual tranny Honda Civic Hybrid, I speak from experience. I have owned the car for almost 7 months, and I am achieving EPA numbers for the first 9,000 miles of ownership. Many drivers are FAR FAR exceeding EPA numbers in their hybrids. Browse on over to greenhybrid.com and look at the Real Mileage Database. You will see the great MPG numbers this fabulous and amazing technology allows drivers to achieve, something never before possible in 4 door cars, diesel or otherwise, until Hybrids hit the USA. There is one driver average 92 MPG over the life of his Honda Insight !!
All cars suffer in the cold of winter, not just hybrids, you know that, right? Cars do not reach peak MPG efficiency until they warm up and reach peak operating temps. Hybrids included. And running the A/C compressor in winter puts double whammy on MPG figures, which is where your defroster problem came into play.
Are you aware that there is a way to disable the A/C compressor with the defroster on in a Civic Hybrid? That eliminates the A/C penalty for defrosting.
I think you should do your research and write ANOTHER article that highlights all the benefits of Hybrids and how there are THOUSANDS of hybrid owners who are learning to drive for max MPG and exceeding EPA numbers."
He has some sort of anti-Hybrid agenda up his sleeve. Maybe he's taking money under the table from some of the companies who do not have Hybrids to bad mouth them....? All I know is that he peed me off bigtime !!!
#4
02-16-2005, 12:10 PM
I have to disagree.
I know there are a ton of people here who love their hybrids - and thus think this article is unfair. But I can totally relate to it.
I believed the hype. I thought my Escape hybrid would be just like a regular Escape, only with much better gas mileage. I read review after review that GUSHED about how GREAT the hybrids were. The only drawback anyone ever talked about was how weird it was to have the engine shut off when you were at a stop light.
There was never a mention of having to radically alter your driving style.
There was never a mention of local topography and weather significantly hurting your MPG.
There was almost never a mention of the AC/defrost hurting your MPG.
The only quotes I've ever read were of people 100% happy with their purchase.
So if you want to read more articles about how great hybrids are, there are plenty of them out there. Personally, I LIKE the fact that someone actually wrote about the other side of the coin - about how hybrids don't always live up to their hype, and how some people are disappointed.
I think it's a good thing to print more realistic expectations.
I believed the hype. I thought my Escape hybrid would be just like a regular Escape, only with much better gas mileage. I read review after review that GUSHED about how GREAT the hybrids were. The only drawback anyone ever talked about was how weird it was to have the engine shut off when you were at a stop light.
There was never a mention of having to radically alter your driving style.
There was never a mention of local topography and weather significantly hurting your MPG.
There was almost never a mention of the AC/defrost hurting your MPG.
The only quotes I've ever read were of people 100% happy with their purchase.
So if you want to read more articles about how great hybrids are, there are plenty of them out there. Personally, I LIKE the fact that someone actually wrote about the other side of the coin - about how hybrids don't always live up to their hype, and how some people are disappointed.
I think it's a good thing to print more realistic expectations.
#5
02-16-2005, 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by copyboy1
I know there are a ton of people here who love their hybrids - and thus think this article is unfair. But I can totally relate to it.
I believed the hype. I thought my Escape hybrid would be just like a regular Escape, only with much better gas mileage. I read review after review that GUSHED about how GREAT the hybrids were. The only drawback anyone ever talked about was how weird it was to have the engine shut off when you were at a stop light.
There was never a mention of having to radically alter your driving style.
There was never a mention of local topography and weather significantly hurting your MPG.
There was almost never a mention of the AC/defrost hurting your MPG.
The only quotes I've ever read were of people 100% happy with their purchase.
So if you want to read more articles about how great hybrids are, there are plenty of them out there. Personally, I LIKE the fact that someone actually wrote about the other side of the coin - about how hybrids don't always live up to their hype, and how some people are disappointed.
I think it's a good thing to print more realistic expectations.
I believed the hype. I thought my Escape hybrid would be just like a regular Escape, only with much better gas mileage. I read review after review that GUSHED about how GREAT the hybrids were. The only drawback anyone ever talked about was how weird it was to have the engine shut off when you were at a stop light.
There was never a mention of having to radically alter your driving style.
There was never a mention of local topography and weather significantly hurting your MPG.
There was almost never a mention of the AC/defrost hurting your MPG.
The only quotes I've ever read were of people 100% happy with their purchase.
So if you want to read more articles about how great hybrids are, there are plenty of them out there. Personally, I LIKE the fact that someone actually wrote about the other side of the coin - about how hybrids don't always live up to their hype, and how some people are disappointed.
I think it's a good thing to print more realistic expectations.
#6
02-16-2005, 02:11 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
Most of the articles I've read show hybrid as hype, C&D complained that their professional drivers only did 36MPG in their HCH, etc, and this latest article seem pretty much typical.
Personally I've been very happy about my cars performance, and I achieve what most people do not....But I do try to always include that I'm not driving "normally" to do it.
I also post alot on other boards and always point folks to the database here, and point out the current HCH average.
My first tanks were low 40's, and that's when I learned that I'll have to do my part too. I've always known that A/C will hurt MPG in any vehicle. Unfortunately most reviewers will seek out the people less satisfied, and push their complaint forward.
I'm not aware aft anyone, not even one of us who are doing very, very well with our autos being approached by any interviewer. I think that's sad.
Sometimes I even wonder if there is an oil company conspiracy afoot, backing some of these articles.
Personally I've been very happy about my cars performance, and I achieve what most people do not....But I do try to always include that I'm not driving "normally" to do it.
I also post alot on other boards and always point folks to the database here, and point out the current HCH average.
My first tanks were low 40's, and that's when I learned that I'll have to do my part too. I've always known that A/C will hurt MPG in any vehicle. Unfortunately most reviewers will seek out the people less satisfied, and push their complaint forward.
I'm not aware aft anyone, not even one of us who are doing very, very well with our autos being approached by any interviewer. I think that's sad.
Sometimes I even wonder if there is an oil company conspiracy afoot, backing some of these articles.
#7
02-16-2005, 03:22 PM
Hybrids give us the "option" to get 60/70/80/90/100 MPG
Originally Posted by copyboy1
There was never a mention of having to radically alter your driving style. There was never a mention of local topography and weather significantly hurting your MPG. There was almost never a mention of the AC/defrost hurting your MPG. The only quotes I've ever read were of people 100% happy with their purchase. So if you want to read more articles about how great hybrids are, there are plenty of them out there. Personally, I LIKE the fact that someone actually wrote about the other side of the coin - about how hybrids don't always live up to their hype, and how some people are disappointed. I think it's a good thing to print more realistic expectations.
Topography and cold weather hurts ALL cars. Hard rubber, wet roads, engines taking longer to warm up, there are dozens of posts on this board that explain how and why ANY CAR is harmed in the MPG arena when the weather is cold.
Any car also, not just Hybrids, which uses the A/C to defrost is getting it's MPG harmed. That's again not a Hybrid phenomenon.
The problem with the mainstream media is this: almost EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE contains either a stretched truth, an untruth, or just a flat out misconception about Hybrids and/or how they perform. I certainly concur that there are not enough articles talking to the Hybrid drivers who have taken the steps to learn how to maximize the capability of the Hybrid technology. "Shiny Happy People" do not make for good news stories - just the complainers !!
I'd like to see Wayne get in touch with EVERY SINGLE driver who has ever been quoted as not being pleased with the Hybrid performance and let him give them a Hypermiler class. They would be silenced !!
Even on this board, there are people who have talked about not being pleased with their car's MPG performance. Drivers usually learn over time how to "read" their car and use the capability to help them save gas money. MY first tank seven months ago was 38 MPG, and my current tank is 52.6 - you LEARN !!
#8
02-16-2005, 03:40 PM
I think the original article in question is overly negitive but as copyboy1 mentioned that balances the overly pretty picture painted by the 100% positive hype on the other end scale. Many of the article's points are true. Is it better do be impressed that a car does better than the article said or dissapointed that the car does not live up to the hype?
I love my HCH and it is doing tons better than the EPA numbers but you don't need to look any farther than our own mileage database to see that on avearage the hybrids are not getting what the EPA numbers suggest. The Civic is by far the closest only missing by a couple mpg. Some of the others are quite a way off. Not one Accord has hit the EPA average yet. Yes I know it is winter and that the cars are all new but do the other customers?
Linux has the same problem. Lot of really smart people are thinking "well heck all you gotta do to start the print services is type "/etc/init.d/cupsys start"". What all those "smart" people don't realize is that people don't want to type in "/etc/init.d/cupsys start", they want to click on an icon that says "start print services" or they want print services to start automatically.
We are the smart ones that don't get it when it comes to hybrids. The average person is gonna drive a hybrid the same way as they drive their regular car paying no attention to the settings and not taking the weather or traffic into account and they are going to be dissapointed in their hybrid which is not a good thing for the hybrid market. Yes it is their own ignorance that is the real problem but there is no shortage of ignorance in the world.
I love my HCH and it is doing tons better than the EPA numbers but you don't need to look any farther than our own mileage database to see that on avearage the hybrids are not getting what the EPA numbers suggest. The Civic is by far the closest only missing by a couple mpg. Some of the others are quite a way off. Not one Accord has hit the EPA average yet. Yes I know it is winter and that the cars are all new but do the other customers?
Linux has the same problem. Lot of really smart people are thinking "well heck all you gotta do to start the print services is type "/etc/init.d/cupsys start"". What all those "smart" people don't realize is that people don't want to type in "/etc/init.d/cupsys start", they want to click on an icon that says "start print services" or they want print services to start automatically.
We are the smart ones that don't get it when it comes to hybrids. The average person is gonna drive a hybrid the same way as they drive their regular car paying no attention to the settings and not taking the weather or traffic into account and they are going to be dissapointed in their hybrid which is not a good thing for the hybrid market. Yes it is their own ignorance that is the real problem but there is no shortage of ignorance in the world.
#9
02-16-2005, 04:20 PM
Expectations
I think the biggest thing is setting expectations.
Yes, ANY car will get lower gas mileage when you floor it, or drive it without warming it up. etc.
The general public knows that about regular ICE cars. We're all aware that we won't get exactly the gas mileage the manufacturer claims.
But the thing is, hybrids are so new, the general public DOESN'T know this stuff about them yet. I did a ton of research before buying mine and really didn't come across any information that would suggest my FEH would underperform. (Granted, I bought one of the first ones, so there was little/no real world data, but still, I expect the car magazines and consumer groups to honestly review a car.)
I guess that's my point. Sure, the reporter could have interviewed plenty of people who get better-than-advertised gas mileage from their hybrids. But that would have just reinforced the fact that hybrids are perfect and everyone will benefit from buying them. The problem comes from the backlash when they don't live up to that hype.
My FEH has drastically underperformed compared to my expectations. Would I recommend a hybrid to anyone I know? No. Would I buy another hybrid in the future? No. However if the FEH had been sold to me with more realistic expectations, I wouldn't be so disappointed and might be more likely to give hybrids another shot.
Yes, ANY car will get lower gas mileage when you floor it, or drive it without warming it up. etc.
The general public knows that about regular ICE cars. We're all aware that we won't get exactly the gas mileage the manufacturer claims.
But the thing is, hybrids are so new, the general public DOESN'T know this stuff about them yet. I did a ton of research before buying mine and really didn't come across any information that would suggest my FEH would underperform. (Granted, I bought one of the first ones, so there was little/no real world data, but still, I expect the car magazines and consumer groups to honestly review a car.)
I guess that's my point. Sure, the reporter could have interviewed plenty of people who get better-than-advertised gas mileage from their hybrids. But that would have just reinforced the fact that hybrids are perfect and everyone will benefit from buying them. The problem comes from the backlash when they don't live up to that hype.
My FEH has drastically underperformed compared to my expectations. Would I recommend a hybrid to anyone I know? No. Would I buy another hybrid in the future? No. However if the FEH had been sold to me with more realistic expectations, I wouldn't be so disappointed and might be more likely to give hybrids another shot.
#10
02-16-2005, 04:47 PM
Pretty Darn Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Eastern Washington State
Posts: 443
Can we blame the EPA?
I do not seriously mean blame the EPA, but I've read on posting boards that people forget that the mileage numbers that end up on window stickers is really more of a reference number than the actual number you will get. There has been lots of talk about how outdated and unrealistic the EPA economy numbers are, and I will grant you that their testing regimen is not really representative of current highway driving characteristics or city driving characteristics. But what you can give the EPA is credit for keeping things consistent. If you ignore that you are looking at their MPG test results and just see absolute values and compare values between vehicles, without considering MPG you actually get a good idea of the potential benefit of driving hybrid. As hybrid drivers, we are supersensitive to changes in fuel economy because our vehicles are either always communicating to us fuel economy or because we chose hybrid to get better fuel economy. Although I'm nowhere close to EPA numbers, I'm not unhappy. How many folks out there are getting better than 30mpg with their regular vehicles? And during the winter?
