On Wednesday, Dodge will show a face-lifted 2007 Durango that goes on sale in August.

Engineers also have prepped the SUV for a hybrid engine that will be offered in the 2008 calendar year.....

http://mixedpower.com/modules.php?na...ticle&sid=1089

 

"The Durango Hybrid Electric Vehicle will be powered by a 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 engine. Dodge anticipates a 25 percent fuel-economy boost."

Must...not...make...sarcastic...power hybrid...comment... ...can't control...

So +25% ought to take that from 10 to 12? Whew. My grandchildren are now safe!

Darn. Hey, I tried.

 

What is it about the Big 2.5 that makes the Detroit auto industry look like a bunch of pointy-haired bosses from a Dilbert cartoon? Why couldn't they at least hook it up to the V-6? Will someone just pull the plug on the power grid there - game is over.

Jeff

 

Just like Tim, I could not keep from shaking my head.

I mean, if they are really looking for a substantial fuel efficiency boost, they MUST FIRST choose the ICE accordingly. Meaning a much smaller ICE, probably the V6, whose torque and horsepower is complemented by the electric motor.


But a 5.7 liter V8 Hemi ?? That thing has so much power and torque. When is the electric assist going to kick in? Unless there is a slow speed, all-electric mode.

 

Got someone upset a few weeks ago with my remarks about the planned hybrid Escalade. These are the same class of vehicles catering to the same market as the Chevy Tahoe (thousands are making spoofy Web ads about the Tahoe).

If you ever pickup a copy of The High and Mighty, it devotes a lot of time to the Durango intentionally designed to be a hulking, intimidating vehicle. How is hulking going to be fuel-efficient?

This is not a funny story, but it still hits the mark on jumbo hybrid SUV's. About four or so years ago, then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was introduced to Slim Fast. He liked the taste so much he finished off the entire six-pack. (still in a coma after his massive stroke in Jan 2006 )

That's my take on hybrid jumbo SUV's - attempting to justify a vehicle that is inheritantly unsafe, oversized, and a nuisance.

 

Let me just state my three big gripes against hybrid land-yachts:

1. A 25-35% boost on a vehicle whose base fuel economy is 8-12 MPG is not a meaningful improvement.

2. These vehicles have such huge engines in them that I can't believe the IMA component will ever be called upon to do anything other than idle-stop.

3. The target vehicles seem to be all high-end luxury vehicles, which are priced far above the reach of the mainstream buyer.

 

Guys, serious question here........Is it required that in order to be a true hybrid supporter, you must hate SUVs and the companies that make them?

I for one think that hybrids are a great technology play and have a place in the automotive economy. On the other hand, I happen to be close enough to the development process of several hybrid programs to see and understand the obnoxious costs involved in developing and manufacturing them that do not get passed on to the consumer.

Furthermore, I think that SUVs as a vehicle type are necessary in an economy like the US. Let the people who like and buy hybrids do so. Likewise, let the people who need and buy SUVs do so.

Absolutely true, except that most SUVs don't get 8 - 12. The 13 - 29 mpg EPA ratings that SUVs sold in the US get is not as good as sedans and coupes, but to blanket the whole SUV market with an "8 - 12 mpg" tag is unfair. Another way to look at it is "who would benefit more from a 25% reduction in annual fuel costs? The guy spending $970 a year in fuel (EPA estimate for annual fuel cost for Civic) or the guy spending $2,538 a year for fuel (EPA estimate for Dodge Durango FFV). the Durango owner's sticker f/e won't look much better, but his wallet will enjoy the relief.

Believe it or not, there is a counter-intuitive approach to this issue. There is a point where a larger engine becomes a benefit, especially in truck / SUV world. With the right engine / torque converter / transmission integration, the larger engine "loafs" where the smaller engine would be working like a chihuahua pulling a mail-sled. For engines that use cylinder de-activation (Dodge Hemi, GM Vortec V8, GM 3.9L HVV6) the larger displacement versions spend more time in reduced cylinder mode, effectively increasing fuel efficiency. If the sweet spot for a vehicle is to operate drawing 110 hp, the GM 3.9L w/ 240 hp can operate in 3 cylinder mode. A 3.5L w/ 205 hp would not. Corvette's have big 6.0L 400hp engines, but their EPA rating is 18 city / 28 hwy. The engine is barely breathing on the EPA cycle.

That's sort of the starting point. The idea is to attempt to recover some of the development costs by focusing on segments where people are will ing to spend the money on the vehicle, but also see the largest actual $ reduction in fuel costs (see point #1 above). Also in Dodge's case, since they entered into the joint development agreement with GM, they're limited in terms of what their first product could be to vehicles that can package the 2-Mode hardware. Don't believe for a minute that they are going to stop there.

Peace,

Martin

 

By the way, for those who feel it is appropriate to hate SUVs and the companies that make them, here's a couple facts pulled from the same article.....

Toyota brand sales increased 6.7% to 189,694 vehicles and Lexus rose 8.3% to 27,952 units.


Though gasoline-electric Prius sales fell 23% to 7,922 units in March, Toyota SUVs and pickups were increasingly popular.

Guess it's time to start hatin' Toyota And for the record, Toyota SUVs and Pickups are not as fuel efficient as GM's or Ford's.

More from the same article.......


By brand, sales of Chevrolet products fell 15% to 219,288 vehicles. But Cadillac, Hummer, Saab and Buick sales rose during the month.


For GM's big SUVs like the Cadillac Escalade, GMC Yukon and the Chevrolet Tahoe, sales were much stronger than last year as redesigned models arrive at dealerships.
Basically, the bottom hasn't fallen out of SUVs yet. There are advantages for companies that can make them more fuel efficient. Say what you want about the H2, but the H3 is competitive on f/e with other like-sized SUVs (16 city / 20 hwy, as compared to Explorer 15/20 and 4Runner 17/21).
Hummer sells 3 or 4 H3s for every H2 sold, and that's where Hummer's increased sales are coming from.

Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon get better fuel economy with a V8 and a 4 speed transmission than the smaller Kia Sorrento with a V6 and a 5 speed transmission. The gap will widen when Tahoe and Yukon get 6 speed transmissions. The improved fuel economy is part of the reason they are selling much better than the 2006 models they replaced.

Peace,

Martin

 

I won't deny there is a market for family-sized vehicles, or trucks with large hauling capacity. What strikes a nerve is the boom of these vehicles since the mid 1990's. That's about the time when SUV's and Barry Bonds became dramatically bigger. Usually only one or two people are riding in them. Ever see a full H2? I'm unconvinced most people need these vehicles because they got along just fine without them before 1985 - it's not like A/C, the internet, phones....

SUV's have been dissed for what they do to the environment, road maintanence, traffic congestion, fuel consumption. The least significant reason to society is the most personal one - the insensitivity and rudeness of many of the drivers. Some will say: "I'm not that jerk!" - but many people have experienced unpleasant experiences from vehicles often larger than a sedan.

People are seeking painless solutions. Just take a pill and lose weight or maintain good health....the Durango hybrid SUV smacks of one of those "painless solutions".

P.S. I take no joy that GM and Ford combined are going to eliminate 60,000 jobs in the next few years. Assuming the SUV market will boom forever while letting the sedan market go to the Japanese is factoring into this....

 

American car companies have been almost single-handedly responsible for every 10 mpg land barge created in the last four decades. Toyota and the like are recent entries, and offer very few (like 2 or 3) models that are in that class. So let's not point the finger just yet. So now, almost all American hybrid entries into the market are the same 10 mpg land barges, just now they get 12 mpg and have 50 more horsepower. Hey, way to go. They all raced straight past a great idea and found the quickest way to abuse it. I used to think that any hybrid was a good hybrid, but the short-sightedness and shameless greed of these car companies is more than I can stand.