I have to disagree. The Highlander Hybrid has 270 horsepower V6 and is rated as an SULEV vehicle. This is why I bought it. The standard V6 is around 220 horse power but does not carry the SULEV tag and neither does the 155 horse 4 cyl. If I was only concerned about MPG I would have gotten the 4 cyl which comes very close to the Hybrid for MPG. The fact that I got a more powerful car and was able to reduce emmisions was a big plus in my book.

That's because the neither of these cars are classified as SULEV, but the 340 hp Lexus is and it is a big selling point in my opinion. SULEV is not relative it is an absolute rating based on the weight class of the vehicle. In order for a passenger vehicle to be rated as SULEV it has to put out less that 0.010 grams of HC, 1.0 grams of CO, and 0.02 grams of NOx per mile. So the person who owns the Lexus can brag that he is putting less emmissions into the atmospher than the the 273 HP Camry/Avalon owner. And go figure, he also has more HP.
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national...ons_popup.tmpl
Emmissions is not necessarily tied directly to MPG.

This is incorrect. Both hybrid Lexus models and the Highland hybrid have considerable more power than the Prius and yet all these vehicles carry the same SULEV rating. The amount of pollution you put into the air is not just dependent upon your MPG. It has a lot to do with how much of the fuel is burned during combustion. The idea is to burn up all the fuel that is put into the combustion engine. Any fuel that is left unburnt is what contributes the most to your tail pipe emmisions. Therefore, comparing car A to car B simply by MPG is not a fair comparison for emmisions if car B is more effecient at burning all the fuel in the combustion chamber.

 

You're missing something. You are correct that hybrid technology does not itself reduce emissions (besides by reducing fuel consumption) but you are wrong in thinking two cars with equal mileage have equal pollution. Ford, Volkswagen, Honda, and others have already created PZEV cars that are perfectly ordinary but they get PZEV-level emissions. It's all about how the gas is burned and the scrubbing stuff that converts the exhaust gas into less harmful forms. Also some fuel tank stuff is added to reduce evaporative emissions (unburnt gas is far more harmful than burnt gas) which is why PZEV vehicles usually have smaller gas tanks than their regular equivalent... to keep the exterior size the same (so it fits), but have the extra emissions controls, the interior size shrinks a bit.

Likewise, this GS 450h is also an AT-PZEV if I'm not mistaken. Yet it gets "ordinary" mileage.

 

I belive the hybrid system itself does promote better smog ratings, even aside from after-treatment. The primary way hybrid systems save fuel is by eliminating idling and using the motors in combination with the engine to keep the engien in a more efficient RPM range all the time. Not only are these RPM ranges inherently more fuel-efficient, they are also inherently cleaner per gallon burned than running the engine at idle or near-idle most of the time. As far as I know, this is one of the reasons why the Honda Hybrids with the CVT transmissions have scored slightly better than the manual transmission versions as there is less deviation from the optimal RPM range.

 

Oh, that makes sense, DT.

 

I'm still not quite convinced what you said about MPG is not related to emissions. From what i understand, MPG in ICE gasoline cars does tell how much emissions it burns out. Lets say we punch the throttle in the prius, camry V6 and the Lexus and have them accelerate to 60MPH, I bet the emissions spewing out of the V6 Camry and the Lexus wont be too far apart.

I know this government testing method is about 30 years old and i dont really go by that: they promised me 60MPG but i'm getting 50MPG, and i'm not the only one complaining, it's all over the news no one thinks that's a credible source of info that's why they are changing that soon to include more realistic driving habits and environmental factors like hills and weather. I know during these tests they make these cars run too slow that the hybrid motor kicks in and propells the car forward, thus, producing ZERO emissions, i bet that's where the SULEV stamp comes in. Okay, that being said, i know there are many situations where that happens in the city. But, during acceleration, we all know that the combustion engine will kick in. A big car like the lexus will be burning more fuel to propel the car forward because of it's weight and the fact it's got a 3.5L V6 engine it produces more HP per RPM thus burning more gas. ALso, in ACTUAL highways, (where the gov't testing method doesnt even cover in it's tests), the ICE will be the one propelling the car forward and sustaining the car's speed at 60 - 80MPH. With the exceptions of going downhill where the ICE can shut off to coast, I bet that emissions of the lexus and a camry v6 in this driving environment wont be too far apart either.

Perhaps a better comparison would be, the lexus produces the same emissions as a regular V6 (in this case, a CAMRY V6/AVALON) when the car is running on ICE, eg Accelerating, maintaining highway speeds, but it has a really nice feature of turning that off during deceleration, stop lights, and slow movement on level roads (and lets not forget reverse). At least that's how i see it. So i believe that's where this car can be described as having Lowered Emissions with the added benefit of having more HP from the Electric engine which stored wasted power such as braking or coasting. I stated that a 4 Cyl. with a hybrid motor geared towards lowering emissions is still a better way to reduce emissions. If i travel 50 miles in a Prius or HCH, and you travel 50 Miles in a V6 Hybrid. Lets say i get 50MPG and the V6 gets 25MPG. Therefore, in the end I have consumed 1Gal and you consumed 2. Where did all of that fuel go? it burned in the gas chambers and the byproduct gases are spewed out as emissions, so who spewed out 2x more? I can say in the end that a prius or HCH driver can be happier to say they "reduce emissions" rather than a v6 hybrid owner, need more proof, who gets to drive in the car pool lanes in some states because we spew out lesser emissions per person even if there is just ONE person in the vehicle?
BTW no pun intended, it's just my 2 cents.

have a nice day

gj

 

Camel, as I have already said, there is already a PZEV Jetta, Fusion, Accord, and others. The PZEV Jetta is EPA rated at 22/30, yet it creates literally no more pollution than the Prius. (Or, if it does, it's little enough to stay within PZEV guidelines.) Imagine that.

You are wrong about equal-mileage cars being equal-pollution. Hell, the ULEV 2005 HCH is more fuel-efficient than the PZEV HCH, yet it creates more pollution.

All other things being equal, reduced fuel consumption reduces pollution. But not all other things are equal -- how the gas is burned, the design of the engine and fuel tank, and the catalytic converter all work to reduce emissions independently of fuel economy.

 

cool

thanks for updating me with current tech events
i'm going to sign off for a while, have some tests to study for


regards,

gj

 

I disagree.

Some people will only buy a muscle car.
This one uses less gas and has lower emisisons than the others.

I think it is a good thing.

 

Wrong idea guys. Toyota just celebrated its 500,000 hybrid sale. That leaves what... only about 150,000,000 others cars that are not hybrids (just in the U.S.). If you want people to drive green you have to make them want the vehicle. There are plenty of people that want to save on gas or save the environment or both. But they have competing needs. Like fitting their family into the car, or they have clients to pamper, or heavy loads to carry etc. Some needs may be more legit than others, and some may just be a matter of preference.

Toyota and Honda know that, hence hybrid SUVs, the GS and the Accord. Not everyone has fuel economy and pollution as their #1 concerns when they purchase a vehicle. This car is a good start. If they throw in cylinder deactivation, and a bigger battery and a plug.... Well, then it will still be out of my price range.

It will be a bit of irony that (hopefully) in a few years GM will offer a plug in hybrid hummer that burns E85. Some hardcore SUV fans will buy it. They will, like ~50% of the rest of us, drive back and forth to work, less than 25 miles per day, thus getting better than 100 mpg because their ICE will almost never run. Thus smokin' the fuel economy of the current generration Prius and HCH.

Fantasy? Look at how many people actually take their SUVs off road, close to none. In the same vein, it doesn't matter if the ICE produces 500 horsepower and gets 10 mpg, if it only runs for 5 minutes a week. I think hybrid technology is the answer, but we need to make people want the vehicles, rather than pummeling them for having a different set of needs.


With regard to questions about fuel economy (24/28 for the GS). A friend of mine had an BMW M3 (330 hp). It had a similar 0-60 time and weighed ~500 lbs less than a GS, and got <13mpg in town. So 24 mpg in town is a huge improvement.

 

Maybe I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but lower emissions and higher economy is achieved partly with the use of the Atkinson Cycling of the ICE. The Atkinson Cycle sacrifices some serious Torque, but the combo with Electric drive motors replaces the low end Torque loss.

Combine this with some serious program control of the entire power train, and you have the beauty of the Hybrid. Many wonder why elements of this have not been applied to all vehicles? Any one of these as a standalone solution would turn the average eco cruiser into a real dog, but in combo together you get decent performance, and a heck of a reduction in emissions.

I also noticed little mention of the impact Auto-Stop has on emissions control. This makes a huge contribution to lowering emissions. Even the GM approach with a Belt Alternator Starter(BAS) system will have dramatic impact on emissions, while providing little mpg relief.

Serious engineering and finances have gone into these platforms, and I guarantee none of the manufacturers are taking this lightly. Even if all vehicles featured Auto-Stop, the environment would be dramatically impacted for the better. Gas powered Golf Carts have had Auto-Stop for a decade, although very crude.

I think within the next ten (10) years we can go back to picking our cars against all the old scorecards without melting the polar ice caps in the process.

It's all good!