BB takes credit, and the longer you wait to get a refund from Falcon, the more likely they will hit you with some kind of "proration" where you will only get part of your money back.


Personally, I recommend you request the refund immediately. As long as the car continues to function has you described above, it is reasonably safe to drive. The only concern is as mentioned before - sustained illumination of the red 12V battery light. As long as your 12V is charging, you have an operational automobile. This will put the money back safely in your pocket, and you have some time to get your savings up.


Falcon took in a non-working battery and has left you with a non-working battery. There is no reason to swap it out again if they try to suggest otherwise.


Good luck,


Steve


EDIT: Not "new-like", NEW. All of the 132 cells in the pack are new. Everything else is built from incoming customer cores or other sources, but the cells (the only parts that matter) are NEW.

 

Here is the real rub; my most recent rant to follow: When dealing with IMA battery issues..... have you seen this before, in any form?
From another forum the following post: "A successful class action was brought against Honda for the 2000 to 2006 Insight.... The problem centered around Battery compartment temperature and overcharging of the Batteries, so new Batteries and controllers/or software monitors were required at Honda’s expense."
RE the above 2000-2006 Insight customers who went to the mechanic; went to the dealership; did everything they could to get information on what the 'real' problem was ... and were only told "the battery is bad, you need a new one."
Only a lawyer can find the answer???? Only the corporate law firm looking at potentially millions in revenue are able to pinpoint the issue? No mechanic at Honda was able to tell even one customer it was Honda's fault because of brand loyalty? I am feeling like we as consumers have circled the wagons and are surrounded by the opposition that cannot be swayed ... without legal action, ever.

 

I understand you're struggling with the situation right now. You are so late to the game, it's not even funny. there was another class action lawsuit for the 06-08 civics. As I mentioned previously, 09-11 has been so bad, Honda extended the warranty to 10yr/150k miles for ALL states. In 2012, they completely redesigned the car and used a Lithium battery for improved reliability at increased cost.


Had you Googled the car before you bought it, you likely wouldn't have bought it. All that information is out there, and it's usually 1st page stuff.

The batteries are bad. Period. They are a bad design, and Honda is stuck with them due to packaging limitations. These are LITERALLY "D" cell batteries. No, they are not the variety you buy from the store. They are special. They are capable of 100A discharges and 50A charges - 50X better than what you buy in the store, and they are welded together to take the current.


The original ones in the 00-06 Insights and 03-05 civics were decent where one could expect them to last. A lot of it has to do with the concurrent demand for high capacity/high drain "D" cells for industrial applications. There was a profitable market demand to fill.


Here's a quick history lesson:


1996: Toyota and Panasonic enter into a 40/60 joint venture to make NiMH batteries for EV applications. Company was called "Panasonic EV Energy".


In 1997, Toyota released the "Gen0" Prius. it used the same "bamboo" stick batteries that were eventually adopted by the 2000-2006 Honda Insight and 2003-2005 Honda Civic Hybrid. The "Gen0" Prius was only sold in Japan, but it has been imported to other regions. They are pretty rare.


In the 2001 model, Toyota realized their mistake with the "bamboo" sticks and their inherent flaws. They chose to convert the car to use the new "prismatic" modules developed by Panasonic EV Energy. These had many design improvements over the "bamboo" sticks; however, they had to be installed and operated in a horizontal orientation. The 2001-2003 model "Gen1" Prius was essentially identical to the 1997-2000 "Gen0" Prius except for the battery change. This was marketed worldwide with the 2001-2003 selling about 54,000 in the U.S. The original "Gen0" design required only minor modification to accommodate a newly configured battery.


As you well know, the Civics install their battery packs in the IPU bay nearly vertically following the upper seat cushion. The prismatic modules will not be reliable in this orientation. The very existence of the IPU bay with the electronics package adjacent the battery pack make redesign a massive undertaking.


The Gen1 Prius batteries were not without their issues. They had a design flaw that could cause the batteries to leak at the junction between the plastic housing and the metal terminal. Toyota's solution was to recall the cars and apply a "sealant" to the terminals... it was a god awful mess of goo that was a battery builder's nightmare. This was corrected in mid-2003 model year, and the module was further improved for the 2004 model year improving internal resistance substantially. For the 2010 model year (Gen3) , the module was further improved by a slight improvement in internal resistance.


The 2000-2006 Insights and 2003-2005 civics were reasonably reliable. These cells were made when there was a relatively large demand for NiMH cells and recycled materials were not commonly incorporated into new cell builds. Failure rates were higher than one would consider desirable from a profitability standpoint, but they were manageable.


The 2006 Civic brought about some changes... 50% more electric power, 10% higher voltage, 15% reduction in capacity, improved internal resistance. As you may guess, this combination puts more stress on the battery overall. Furthermore, their construction changed. the pack was made more compact and cooling dynamics are questionable.


This coincided with a dramatic drop in industrial "D" cell demand as that was being replaced by high drain Lithium. The "D" demand was limited almost exclusively to Honda IMA packs. Panasonic discontinued the sale of the industrial "D" cells used in the packs and production was moved exclusively to Panasonic EV Energy.


Reduced, limited production runs of cells combined with more aggressive use of the battery and a less effecting cooling scheme resulted in an increased failure rate. Consumers took notice. The class action lawsuit was the end result.


The 09 pack was redesigned with slightly increased spacing in the cells to address cooling concerns. It's hard to say whether this helped or not, but replacement rates for 09-10 model years after 3-4 years was 30%. That's nearly 1 in 3 cars failing.


Meanwhile, in the 08-09 timeframe, Panasonic was looking to acquire Sanyo (Makers of the Ford escape hybrid). To speed the process and address regulator concerns of a monopoly, Panasonic to divested themselves of Panasonic EV Energy to prevent their share of the global NiMH market from being too great. Thus, Toyota owned 80% and Panasonic owned 20%. The company was renamed Primearth EV energy in 2010.


The conspiracy theorist in me believes the above also contributed to the issue. Toyota certainly didn't care about the reliability of Honda's batteries. Panasonic's name was no longer on the 06+ cases as it had been on the prior years as I believe final assembly may have occurred at Honda, so Panasonic didn't care. I also believe the incorporation of recycled materials versus virgin materials in their construction may have contributed to their deterioration. I say this because I see it with 100% consistency in the Prius batteries. 04-06 batteries with 160K+ miles are in WAY better shape than 07-08 with fewer miles. Gen3 modules have consistently tested the worst for me (2010+).


So... TOYOTA has owned or been part owner of the company that has made EVERY Prius or Honda IMA battery pack. I personally don't believe they care one bit if Honda Hybrids die a fiery death.


The only thing I hope is that every warranty claim filled by Honda for bad Toyota batteries ultimately gets paid for by Toyota.

 

Hi Steve;


Ok, so here is the latest tomfoolery from Honda. estore.Honda.com has IMA battery modules for $2577.and some change. No core fee is listed. No freight is listed. Just tax. I called the Honda customer service line to confirm I would not be charge a core fee. I was told that the website does not show it; I would not be charged it. I asked how to get that information to the dealership in my town... I was told that no proof would be provided from customer service for me to give to the dealership. If I had the dealership call the number I called and ask the same question they would not tell the dealership the same thing because the dealership needs to call their own private line for information. I was told that there is no way to get the information I was getting.... at CUSTOMER SERVICE... out there to the dealerships rep. Then I was put on hold and when the rep came back on... all of a sudden a core fee would be charged and the web site be ****ed.


It is hilarious... NOT. And another thing. I know we are all just human.. Steve I found a post of yours that discussed code P0a7f and you told the 2007 Honda civic owner 'good on you' for finding a refurbished battery that lasted 1-1/2. It was from a company call Dewer or Doner or some "D" name I cannot recall. But the thing is... even you recognize that a refurbished battery may or may not last longer than a week or a month or even 6 months; let alone a year and a half.... so basically we are all just scraping along trying to do our best to make a little money/save a little money along the way... Right?

 

I have NEVER heard of ANYONE getting a new battery without surrendering their old or paying a core charge. You think you've discovered something, but this is all too common with your typical customer-facing lackey. You are just dealing with ignorant people who probably haven't been in that job for very long and will be moving on soon. You can tell because they've never had that question asked, and they're guessing at the answer.


You are investigating paying a lot of money to HONDA. HONDA is the one responsible for the junk that's in your car now as well as the two previous packs provided by Falcon AS WELL AS THE ORIGINAL. So you've had at least 4 failed HONDA packs in your car. Honda has been plagued with warranty issues to the point of class action lawsuits and warranty extensions presumably to avoid a recall.


Why are you putting any faith in this manufacturer? I have seen no evidence that what they produce now is any better than what's in your car now.



"even you recognize..."? I don't know how there is any confusion on your part. I have stated exactly that EXPLICITLY AND VIOLENTLY AT TIMES. Since I may not have made myself clear to you specifically, I have zero confidence in a "reconditioned" or "refurbished" battery constructed from used Honda cells. I would not pay a single penny for one EVER.


And I don't think you're listening to me...


BUMBLEBEE SELLS NEW BATTERIES. When they receive a core back from a prior customer, Honda cells are removed completely. Brand new sticks made by a different manufacturer in China are installed in the pack. They are also higher capacity and lower resistance than what Honda made/makes. Prior to installation in a pack, they are rigorously tested by the hundreds to build matched sets for optimal performance and life.


Let me give you a summary statement that I hope addresses everything at once:


When a Honda Hybrid pack fails, the best solution is to install a Bumblebee battery made with new cells. Reconditioned packs are horribly unreliable, and Honda produced packs may be no more reliable than the packs that generated the class action lawsuits and warranty extensions. Furthermore, there is a question as to whether a pack purchased from Honda is actually made with new cells.


I hope that covers it. I know you're frustrated. You've had 4 bad packs. I've had 12 bad HCH2 packs, 2 bad HCH1 packs and 1 bad Insight pack. I feel your pain.


My wife's insight has a "new" pack from Honda installed by the previous owner in 4/2015. I'm curious to see if it lasts.

 

Anything new?

 

Hello Keith. My car is a HCH2 2008. At the middle of 2015 IMA battery throw me Check Engine IMA Light. I've dismounted the IMA battery and replaced with another one from scrapyard. I've disassembled and charged all 11 welded sticks with a iMAX B6 80 min @ 5A (~6000mA) and then 80 min @ 0,6A. After that reassembled the pack and live about one year in my garrage with general switch off (Measured votlage then was ~185V). Today, after one year, turned the master switch on and measured voltage - ~ 123V. I've disassembled the pack and made measurements on individual welded sticks. One was ~ 12,7, 7 of them ~ 10,7 and 3 under 9V.

I've used the iMAX B6 to top those 3 under 9V 80 min @ 5 amp.


Now my question is what to do next ?

Top all the welded sticks ? How ? 80 min @ 5A and then 80 min @ 0,5A for each welded stick ?

How to drain a welded stick ? under 1V per cell ?

Prolong™ Battery Reconditioning Package
$ 449.00 is not an option right now because I can't afforded right now.

Can you help me with some info or solution when you have some time ?

Thank you ! Excuse my bad english.

 

The Imax is a poor tool for the job.

Charge at 5.5A for 60 minutes
Charge at 0.5A for 90 minutes
1A discharge to 12.6V, 5.5A charge, 20 minute wait between cycles, 5 cycles. Keep a fan on it.

Should take about 9 hours per cycle, 3 weeks total.

 

Thank you for your quick reply. 1A discharge to 12,6 divided by 12 = 1,05V/cell It is ok ? I mean the process will not discharge under 1V/cell.

 

12 cell NiMH batteries run a strong risk of cell reversal below 13.2V (1.1V/cell average). I have seen this happen a dozen time. 12.6V is already a compromise, plus almost all of your subpacks have already been below an average of 1.0V/cell due to self-discharge during long term storage. Cycling below 1V/cell likely has no benefit.


You need to cycle the subpacks to see if it will correct the self-discharge issue. You likely have no capacity issues.


A fully charged pack with healthy/functional subpacks likely wouldn't discharge below 158V total or 14.4V per subpack.


Lastly, I dont' have much experience with the B6 80. I know it's a 80W charge/10W discharge, but beyond that, I assume it's as bad as the dozen B6 I have. The Chinese knock-offs are horribly unreliable. Is yours a Chinese knock-off, or is it genuine SkyRC?