I have a little rant about the Honda IMA system.

Some people believe that the IMA will save the world from mass destruction. Some people believe that IMA is tied to the Civic Hybrid as a trim level and cannot be made separate. Others believe that they have the perfect car. I would like to address some of these points to encourage an open discussion about the topic of IMA systems.

How can a car that uses gas like other non-hybrid cars save the world? It is true it uses less gas overall, but the engine is smaller than the engine in a non-hybrid Civic. Others on this forum have stated that using the same Hyper-milling techniques on a regular Civic can achieve 40+ mpg. I would go as far as asking Honda why wouldn't you put the same lightweight wheels, under-body covers, etc on a non-hybrid? What would be the harm? Would the price go up? Would the non-hybrid perform just as well? Are you selling a hype? What is your agenda?

Some might state that Honda used the IMA in the Honda Accord. That is true. But Honda did not bring the IMA to the new 2008 Accord. Why? Another question would be, why not incorporate the IMA technology in the Honda Fit and CRV? The Fit is more usable in the City for loading small cargo or cargo that will not fit in the trunk of the Civic Hybrid. Why not the CRV? It is based off of a modified Civic Platform. Some people require CUV/SUVs for work and to carry people. Does this prove that the IMA system is tied to only the Honda Civic? At this time yes. Honda needs to treat IMA as another engine option.

Is the Honda Civic Hybrid the perfect car? This question is dependent on the applicable use and personal preference of the owner. From a daily to and from application, it works. From a people mover it will depend on how many people are in the car and how much each person weighs. Why is that important? The Civic has a 850 Lbs limit. Adding more people in the car or getting closer to that limit will have an effect on the mpgs the car can get. The engine now needs to work harder.

Honda needs to think about making the IMA system an option on all of their car lines. The IMA does not have a limitation on engine size. The 2007 Accord proved that by having it installed in the V6 engine.

IMA will benefit all the cars in Honda's line from SUVs to very small compacts.

As this technology changes from year to year with advancements and improvements, IMA may evolve into a common platform one day. It is apparent that Honda chooses to limit the use of IMA to a single platform.

* Disclaimer Notice *
My rant is in no way meant to offend anyone on this forum. It was written to plant a seed of question to anyone who reads it. Although I cannot prevent anyone here from replying to this post in a negative way, I would hope it will invoke thought about why and why not.

Please read this post with an open mind and comment if you wish.

 

Wow. I didn't know there were no more HAHs. I would have thought that Honda would start making more hybrid models... beats me

 

even if you could get 40mpg out of a non hybrid civic, I am getting 49-50 from my hybrid.

thats a 20 percent increase, which is huge. So claiming there is no advantage is ridiculous.

as for the weight issue, all passenger cars have similar "limits" and all will be impacted in their fuel economy.

IMA is not going to be common. Honda needs to create a hybrid system that is truly a hybrid in the sense that it is electric driven with an engine to charge the battery. What they have now just isnt going to scale into a plugin the way i believe the prius HSD technology can.

as much as I like honda, i believe toyotas system is more advanced and versatile.
ultimately plugins and then electrics need to become main stream.

we need to skip bio fuels as they are a joke, we need to skip hydrogen for so many reasons. My primary ones being, why use electricity to make hydrogen then use hydrogen to make electricity? Why not just use the electricity? Why create a new distribution infrastructure when we have a perfectly adequate one now? One which lends itself to bringing online green power production or even home power production?

My point I guess is that IMA is irrelevant. It works for now, but its just an intermediate technology.

oh yea and as for the Fit, honda is introducing a hybrid specific model in the next few years so that concern is already addressed.

they didnt put the hybrid in the new accord because no one bought the last one they made, the accord hybrid was a sales disaster. Why would they keep making something no one is buying?

also toyota will be offering a hybrid option for every vehicle at some point, I am not sure if honda has committed to the same.

 

I would guess, a HCH 2 with IMA removed would do almost as well for FE? H

 

Small cars ( Civic, Fit ) are NOT good cars to "hybridize".

Small cars already get high mileage.
As illustrated in this thread, the Hybrid Civic gets ~20% higher MPG.

The Ford Escape weighs 3800 pounds empty.
The Ford Escape Hybrid gets 50% higher MPG.

Denver had downtown city busses that got ~3 MPG.
( Think about it, big A/C use, and lots of time standing still with the motor running, and very slow moving traffic. )

10 years ago ( yes really, pre-Prius ) Denver invested in hybrid-electric city busses. The Hybrid bus gets 6 MPG. A 100% ( double ) improvement.

The larger / heavier vehicles are the BEST candidates for hybridization.
This is because the weight of the batteries become insignificant to the size of the power plant, and the overall weight of the vehicle.

 

I know what I am about to write might invoke some backlash but here it goes.

GM has two types of Hybrid systems on the market. One is a full Hybrid as found in their SUV line and a mild Hybrid system that they use in the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu. Although the mild hybrids do not offer high mpgs they do offer auto stop and other minor hybrid benefits.

I would like to see Honda make a mild IMA if they cannot integrate a full hybrid system in their entire line up. Using a mild option in the Honda Pilot or Odyssey Van could save someone and the environment while it is in stop and go traffic. Using smaller capacity batteries could also be used since the mild option would be limited to auto stop and glide functions.

Like GPSMan1 wrote above, the biggest advantage to hybrids come by installing them in large vehicles. The efficients start to rise tremendously.

(Again, I am not against the use of IMA, I drive my Hybrid to and from work on a daily basis. I have been a Honda person for a while and really don't have the desire to drive a Toyota. Not to say anything bad about Toyota, but there cars are not my cup of tea.)

 

Oh God, here we go again...

The IMA architecture (as it stands today in its 4th generation) does not scale well to larger platforms. Period !!

To suggest that small cars are not potential targets for hybridization simply demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of the currently available hybrid topologies.

Until Honda releases its next version that provides among many other features, an active clutch between the MGSet and the Gas engine the scalability to larger platforms will suffer and will offer diminishing returns.

Now, when considering the alternate available hybrid architectures particularly the HSD from Toyota, we are definitely looking at an architecture that may scale much better for larger platforms, but unlike Honda's IMA may offer some packaging and design challenges for Toyota when adapting to smaller platforms.

I am not even mentioning Ford because...

Anyway, also take the two mode hybrid platform (GM's and other upcoming manufacturers) and you'll have even better hybrid scalability for larger vehicles.

And that my friends is why Honda has identified a little over 4 years ago their strategy of using their hybrid technology only for small platforms... and Clean Diesel power plants for their larger vehicles. The Civic Hybrid sits at the edge of the effectiveness envelope for the current IMA architecture.

Again, that is also why in the larger context, the HAH failed since IMA could only deliver a performance boost but not the FE performance it needed to succeed in a fuel economy driven market. Sure an I-4 engine would have helped a little in the FE department but not enough to justify the price range Honda needed to fetch for its development. The rest my friends, is history.


arbittan:

We read you.

No car is ever perfect, IMA or HSD will not save the world.

And in the end, we need to be able to wade through people's excitement and enthusiasm about their vehicular choices without losing sight of what brings us all together here at GreenHybrid.


Cheers;

MSantos

 

I noticed this...If you want to avoid highly negative replies, it helps if you start the thread without emotionally charged wording.
About the IMA - it's not a full hybrid system. All it does is at full-throttle time (standstill, passing, getting up to cruise speed) allow a gas engine to perform like it had 50% greater displacement. Omission: it also allows autostop and restarting, but definitely not a platform to convert to a plug-in hybrid (although Mike Dabrowski is currently moving in that direction by adding batteries on his MIMA Insight and giving it mixed-mode capability.

All hybrids currently in production (2007) need gas or diesel...the fartherest you can get away from the pump for under $100K is an aftermarket Hymotion upgrade to a Prius that gives it about a 20-mile EV range....we are not yet at the point of going gassless for anything but very short trips yet.

 

You have to admit, nothings gets us worked up then somebody attempting to bash a technology!!

Great technologies always start off with issues. This is why we test and test. But in a lab you can only do so much testing. The real tests start when products are introduced into the market for consumer testing.

I know when I need an idea expanded on, I turn to an outside group of people not connected to my project to offer insight on things we might have missed. I don't know if Honda engineers read this site, but maybe someone who works for Honda in another capacity would.

We owe a lot of our current technology to Science Fiction. They pushed what technology we have and made engineers build it...

Not long ago, about 6 months, scientist were able to transport a single atom from the US to Australia in mere seconds. (Transporter referencing Star Trek).

Just think what idea we would come up with might end up in the next IMA design?

 

Although I agree with some and not with others...

This was a good read, and a great way to start my morning! hahaha

I have always been a Honda fan, over any other company. With owning several of the honda civic lines... I am happy with what I have. I am getting GREAT mileage (maybe not compared to some 60+MPG) even though I know that I live in an area FULL of hills.

Due to the "lack" of power on the hybrid, sometimes I feel like that may be the problem.

My opinion to this solution, would be to make a stronger electrical engine to help power the IMA system. Currently, if I am correct, we only get about 20hp out of the electrical motor. Toyota's Prius and Camary have about 70hp on electrical engine ( last time I remember looking ). If we can get that extra power out of the electrical motor and still keep the IMA technology, I believe Honda would beat the competition.

Going uphill with all the bars used (electrical) I find myself going nowhere fast! hahahaha
I love my hybrid, and that is just the end of the story. It is what it is, and if you dont like it sell it. I purchased my civic because it looks like a normal car, and its a hybrid at the same time.