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biodiesel vs. hybrid emmissions

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  #21  
Old 12-13-2007, 08:43 PM
centrider's Avatar
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Default Re: biodiesel vs. hybrid emissions

Originally Posted by RichC
First let me say that I'm not 'anti-hybrid' ... in fact I wish we had a small diesel using hybrid technology; I assume it is just a matter of time? Until then, a fuel sipping, long life, clean diesel using a domestically produced renewable fuel is not a bad way to go. From a personal side, 170,000 miles on two 45 mpg VW TDIs running biodiesel ain't half bad.

BUT ... let's not stop at "what comes out of the tailpipe." While I'm not pleased to see Soybeans as the only feedstock in the US being promoted, there are some real positive things coming out of algae-to-biodiesel research. Still too far off to use today, but recycling cooking oil and using non-food grade farm crops isn't entirely bad? Sometimes I think hybrid owners can act a bit to arrogant, especially when they ignore a few 'consumables' that might not be tailpipe related. Petroleum and batteries.
Toyota factory turns landscape to arid wilderness

By MARTIN DELGADO
The 'green-living' Toyota Prius has become the ultimate statement for those seeking to stress their commitment to the environment.

However, the environment-saving credentials of the cars are seriously undermined by the disclosure that one of the car's essential components is produced at a factory that has created devastation likened to the arid environment of the moon. So many plants and trees around the factory at Sudbury in Ontario, Canada, have died that astronauts from Nasa practised driving moon buggies on the outskirts of the city because it was considered the closest thing on earth to the rocky lunar landscape.





Unlike normal cars, hybrids such as the Prius, whose proud owners include Gwyneth Paltrow, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts and ex-Tory leader Michael Howard, are powered by a battery that contains nickel - as well as a traditional petrol engine.
Toyota gets the metal from a Canadian company whose smelting facility at Sudbury has spewed sulphur dioxide into the air for more than a century. The car giant buys about 1,000 tons a year from the plant, which is owned by Inco, one of the world's largest nickel-mining companies. Fumes emerging from the factory are so poisonous that they have destroyed vegetation in the surrounding countryside, turning the once-beautiful landscape into the bare, rocky terrain astronauts might expect to find in outer space. Although efforts have been made in recent years to reduce emissions from the plant's 1,250ft chimney - dubbed the Superstack - campaigners say the factory is still responsible for some of the worst pollution in North America. David Martin, energy co-ordinator of Greenpeace Canada, said: "The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside.
"The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute the pollution, but all it did was spread the fallout right across northern Ontario. Things improved in the Nineties but the plant is still responsible for large-scale emissions of sulphur dioxide.



"Sudbury remains a major environmental and health problem. The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high." Once the nickel is smelted it is sent 10,000 miles on a container ship journey which in itself consumes vast quantities of fuel and energy. First it is shipped to Europe's biggest nickel refinery at Clydach near Swansea, South Wales. From there it is transported to the Chinese cities of Dalian and Shenyang to be turned into a lightweight substance called nickel foam.
The final stage of the manufacturing process takes place in Japan where the Prius batteries are made.


Toyota produced nearly 180,000 Prius cars last year, some 4,000 of which were sold in Britain. Last week 14 MPs from all parties claimed they had exchanged their petrol-guzzling vehicles for a Prius or similar hybrid. But some experts doubt whether the Prius even wins the argument over fuel consumption. Robert Fowler, of the Battery Vehicle Association, said: "It is questionable whether it does any more miles to the gallon than a good diesel." The hybrid system has a very small battery so most of the time it's operating as a petrol car, particularly out of town and above 30mph."

A Toyota spokesman said last night: "I cannot confirm the source of the nickel used in the Prius battery. It is true there is a slight increase in the energy required to produce the materials for the car."
You know, this is not a first here. I'm looking for a primary source.

While one picture is worth a thousand words, two even in this case are worthless to me because these photos lack attribution. The picts could have been taken anywhere - or Photoshopped anywhere.

The following is from Astrobiology Magazine around Sep-Oct, 2005:

"It's hard to find places on Earth that simulate Martian conditions. But the Arizona high desert comes close enough for the experiments the Desert RATS team conducted during the first two weeks of September. According to Joe Kosmo of Johnson Space Center, who has led the Desert RATS effort since its inception, Meteor Crater is an ideal test site because if you "strip away the vegetation, put the atmospheric pressure at 100,000 feet, and put the sun a little farther away, essentially you're encountering the kind of terrain you'd see on Mars," Rough, slightly hilly desert hard pack, with an assortment of rocks and boulders strewn about. And dust (red, of course). Dust everywhere, blowing around in heavy gusts, making dust devils and coating everything in site [sic]."
 

Last edited by centrider; 12-13-2007 at 08:45 PM. Reason: addition of quotation marks around quoted material
  #22  
Old 12-14-2007, 03:13 AM
bwilson4web's Avatar
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Wink Re: biodiesel vs. hybrid emissions

Originally Posted by centrider
You know, this is not a first here. I'm looking for a primary source.

While one picture is worth a thousand words, two even in this case are worthless to me because these photos lack attribution. The picts could have been taken anywhere - or Photoshopped anywhere.
. . .
In this case, we have the original source:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

Daily Mail
Toyota factory
Last updated at 09:34am on 9th May 2007

It has come to our attention that a story originally published in the Mail on Sunday has apparently been misinterpreted by some of our readers. In order to prevent further misinterpretation, we have removed the article from our website. The following letter was published in the Mail on Sunday on May 13, 2007:
Your article about the Inco nickel factory at Sudbury, Canada, wrongly implied that poisonous fumes from the factory had left the area looking like a lunar landscape because so many plants and trees had died. You also sought to blame Toyota because the nickel is used, among countless other purposes, for making the Prius hybrid car batteries.

In fact any damage occurred more than thirty years ago, long before the Prius was made. Since then, Inco has reduced sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent and has helped to plant more than 11 million trees.

The company has won praise from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and environmental groups. Sudbury has won several conservation awards and is a centre for eco-tourism.

Dave Rado
Colchester
In the UK, the libel laws would put the "Daily Mail" at risk if they had continued to publish and support this blatant lie by Martin Delgado. I would be careful about repeating it if I were a Canadian.

Bob Wilson
 

Last edited by bwilson4web; 12-14-2007 at 04:32 AM.
  #23  
Old 12-15-2007, 05:16 AM
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Default Re: biodiesel vs. hybrid emmissions

I don't have much experience or knowledge of Bio-fuels but i can offer this: I did go to college with someone that produced his own BioDiesel fuel. From what he told me it seemed to be working for him. The only problem with it is buying all the equipment to store and mix all the components of the fuel. He was using used cooking oil from local businesses. Getting the used oil from the businesses would also be a concern. I think that is only ONE of many ways to have an impact on emissions and fuel economy. There are many ways to do this.........whether it be Bio-Diesel fuels or Hybrid technology. In each case, there are factors and personal opinions that will come into play to help each person make the decision which is a BETTER solution than the other.
 
  #24  
Old 01-09-2008, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: biodiesel vs. hybrid emmissions

Originally Posted by CJO2007CamryHyb
I don't have much experience or knowledge of Bio-fuels but i can offer this: I did go to college with someone that produced his own BioDiesel fuel. From what he told me it seemed to be working for him. The only problem with it is buying all the equipment to store and mix all the components of the fuel. He was using used cooking oil from local businesses. Getting the used oil from the businesses would also be a concern. I think that is only ONE of many ways to have an impact on emissions and fuel economy. There are many ways to do this.........whether it be Bio-Diesel fuels or Hybrid technology. In each case, there are factors and personal opinions that will come into play to help each person make the decision which is a BETTER solution than the other.
I have a vested interest in seeing biodiesel succeed, since I own a diesel passenger car. That said, I think the premise of comparing the environmental footprint of the currently available biodiesel and diesel cars vs hybrid gasoline cars is faulted, especially if we're suggesting that one of these two approaches is a sustainable, global (or at least regional) transportation solution.

Has anyone actually thought about the waste vegetable oil market, and how many biodiesel-powered cars can be sustained in the current market? I think we're comparing cottage industry (home-processed fuels) verses global manufacturing technology (Toyoto Prius for example.)

This isn't a genuine comparison at all.

How about the corn production agri-business, that's primarily petroleum based (fertilizers, mechanization, energy consumption, tranportation and storage, etc.) - what's the actual energy cost to produce biodiesel from these crops if we take into account the entire production cycle, from sunlight, water and artificial fertilizer to fuel at the pump?

Finally, I would like someone to tell me which biodiesel-approved passenger car I can buy today in the US where the manufacturer will honor their warrant for my BD usage? Ain't one, sorry. Manufacturers are not going there until international standards exist for biodiesel manufacture. And guess which industry is fighting these regulations (hint: petroleum.) BTW, there's only Mercedes as of this date with diesel passenger cars selling new in the US.

I would wish that BD were a reality, but I've got better things to do with my spare time than tinker with a busted rotary fuel pump in my '98 Jetta because of substandard lubricity (exacerbated by the lower lubricity of the current ULSD fuel, BTW), or gelled fuel lines and clogged injectors in the colder months. Is this what we're comparing: home-spun, substandard fuels against the global manufacturing might of Toyota? No contest, hybrid wins hands down. You can't compare hybrids against an alternative that is just hypothetical.

~Joe
 
  #25  
Old 02-11-2008, 12:35 PM
ChicagoHCHII's Avatar
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Default Re: biodiesel vs. hybrid emmissions

Originally Posted by livvie
I got beat up when I proposed that the GX Civic was a cleaner car... but somebody posted a link to a gov site indicating that the hybrid was better (in that in produced less emmissions) what wasn't clear is what kind of emmissions. I still haven't heard anybody tell me which is truly cleaner. A GX (natural gas) civic or the HCH? The GX articles that I find flaunt the fact of how clean the car emmissions are (more so than any other fueled car out there).
I stand corrected. The GX is cleaner according to this link:
http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=4255

The HCH 2 is the only gas powered car that meets tier-2 bin-2 requirements that I'm aware of, but apparently the GX has even lower levels of pollutants than it.

Its referred to as an ILEV though and not a PZEV, and I am unfamiliar with what ILEV is in comparison. I do know that tier-2 bin-2 cars emit negligable emissions as it is the closest rating to ZEV (tier 2 bin 1).
 

Last edited by ChicagoHCHII; 02-11-2008 at 12:44 PM.
  #26  
Old 05-01-2008, 08:45 PM
kerpal's Avatar
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Posts: 38
Default Re: biodiesel vs. hybrid emmissions

Originally Posted by JoeV
I have a vested interest in seeing biodiesel succeed, since I own a diesel passenger truck part car. That said, I think the premise of comparing the environmental footprint of the currently available biodiesel and diesel cars vs hybrid gasoline cars is faulted, especially if we're suggesting that one of these two approaches is a sustainable, global (or at least regional) transportation solution.

Has anyone actually thought about the waste vegetable oil market, and how many biodiesel-powered cars can be sustained in the current market? I think we're comparing cottage industry (home-processed fuels) verses global manufacturing technology (Toyoto Prius for example.)

This isn't a genuine comparison at all.

How about the corn production agri-business, that's primarily petroleum based (fertilizers, mechanization, energy consumption, tranportation and storage, etc.) - what's the actual energy cost to produce biodiesel from these crops if we take into account the entire production cycle, from sunlight, water and artificial fertilizer to fuel at the pump?

Finally, I would like someone to tell me which biodiesel-approved passenger car I can buy today in the US where the manufacturer will honor their warrant for my BD usage? Ain't one, sorry. Manufacturers are not going there until international standards exist for biodiesel manufacture. And guess which industry is fighting these regulations (hint: petroleum.) BTW, there's only Mercedes as of this date with diesel passenger cars selling new in the US.

I would wish that BD were a reality, but I've got better things to do with my spare time than tinker with a busted rotary fuel pump in my '98 Jetta because of substandard lubricity (exacerbated by the lower lubricity of the current ULSD fuel, BTW), or gelled fuel lines and clogged injectors in the colder months. Is this what we're comparing: home-spun, substandard fuels against the global manufacturing might of Toyota? No contest, hybrid wins hands down. You can't compare hybrids against an alternative that is just hypothetical.

~Joe
What?? That is the side effect of a biodiesel and a hybrid?? I don't believe it
 
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