Originally Posted by gpsman1

Martin, have you read this entire thread?
I thought I had already explained "why E10" a long time ago.

The only reason E10 is on the market is, blending stations ( oil companies ) get* the maximum tax credit for 10% ethanol.

They could use more, but there is no $ advantage to it.
EPA has tested and approved E20 and E30 as meeting all air quality requirements, when used in any engine. Lawnmower on up. ( so EPA is ok with it, but auto makes have not taken the step to approve or not approve )

Stations in CA use 5.75% ethanol, but get only 57.5% of the tax credit.

5.75% ethanol is a 1:1 replacement for MTBE.
So really, in the past, to meet EPA standards for oxygenates, blenders needed to only add 5.75%. For some odd reason, lawmakers in Washington made the credit good on a pro-rata basis up to 10% ethanol.
( years ago )

So, to bad the credit doesn't continue to expand.


Thus, big oil companies went to big auto companies and said "would you please certify all your cars for 10% ethanol?" And they did.

The quote in the previous post is false. ( I thought I mentioned that earlier also... ) Ethanol is not bad for pipes!!! Ethanol is less corrosive than water! Old, dirty pipes that have ground water already in them are bad for ethanol! Ethanol will actually clean the pipes, and remove the water in the pipes, but then you end up with wet, dirty ethanol that you should not put in any car!

I got one of the earlier ( cheaper ) models from here earlier this week.
http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/StoreFront

Funny... I posted eariler that in Minnesota the pumps say "Minimum 85% ethanol" but after my water test, they really sell E70.

I just got some "E85" in Colorado.
The Colorado pumps say "Minimum 70% ethanol".
When I did the water test, Colorado is selling 82.5% ethanol at the pump.... in winter....

Go figure.

I had ~4 gallons of plain gas left, and I just filled up with 11 gallons of E82.5.

So that makes it.... about E60. I have about 60% ethanol in my tank now.

I ran up to 40% without issues before I had "the little box".
Ran fine on the trip home, but that was only 4 or 5 miles on an already hot engine. -John

*or used to get. I'm unclear about the current tax incentives

Originally Posted by gpsman1

Martin, thanks for the link.

Here is a direct quote:

"Ethanol can accelerate corrosion in steel and degradation in non metal tank systems by scouring or loosening deposits on the internal surfaces of tanks and piping. If a corrosion cell or rust plug exists, the ethanol can accelerate (scour) the corrosion cell or plug and cause a perforation resulting in a leak."

Basically that illustrates what I was saying.
If your tank ( pipe, etc. ) is old and being held together by rust, then ethanol will "clean" away the rust, (or deposits) and you may be left with a hole! The hole was already there, just plugged with dirt or rust.

Originally Posted by gpsman1

You know there are two sides to every coin.
You must also know that newspapers "spin" stories to their likeing.
In reply to the Bloomberg Article which contrdicts itself at every turn:

"The price of young cattle sold to feedlots gained 8.7 percent in the past year...Average whole milk rose 26 percent ."

Probably true, but no-one explained issues like the price of electricity and gasoline and diesel going up... unrelated to ethanol. Maybe more people are enjoying beef these days? Every time I visit Wendy's or McDonalds the places are packed with people.

"Increased corn planting has caused some fertilizer costs to double.
Diammonium phosphate, a nutrient used on corn fields, reached $792.50 a ton on Feb. 15."

In the same article:

"Corn planting will fall 3.8 percent this year to 90 million acres as farmers sow 12 percent more land with soybeans and 6 percent more with wheat."

So farmers are still rotating crops. And corn planting, by looking at this article, must be more or less at a steady rate these days.

"Ethanol's contribution to inflation is limited, USDA economist Ephraim Leibtag said in an interview. A 50 percent jump in corn prices in 2007 from the 20-year average only added 1.6 cents to the cost of an 18-ounce box of Kellogg Co. Corn Flakes cereal, Leibtag said. The cost is less than 2 percent per box, JPMorgan Chase & Co. estimates."

So the price of corn doubles, but the price of food goes up 2%.
Sounds like a workable solution to me. And I buy more pounds of fuel per week than food. Do you? When the price of food goes up, and the price of fuel goes down, that puts more money in my pocket. And probably most American's pockets.

"Ethanol's boom helps restrain government spending on farm subsidies, said House Agriculture Committee Chairman Collin Peterson, a Minnesota Democrat. The USDA expects taxpayers to spend $941 million on the two main subsidy programs tied to price this year, down from $9.1 billion in 2006."

WoW! All I can say is WoW! If true, that is a 90% reduction in government ( taxpayer ) money going to farmers. Is that not more money in your pocket?

SO what's the REAL reason food prices are going up?
Bloomberg tells us the following:

"Oil prices tripled since the end of 2003...

-John

Originally Posted by centrider

Still, you've not answered the Wisconsin Government report's assertion (which you quoted, ". . .degradation in non metal tank systems. . .").

Originally Posted by centrider

Still, it's to bad our government is so short sighted that it has approved the use of a food for fuel.

Originally Posted by gpsman1

How about the reverse? The majority of grapes are used for wine, not food or fuel. ( wine ethanol is nearly the same % as corn fermented ethanol... 12-15% per batch ) Would the world be better with less drunk driver "winos" if we diverted that grape ethanol to our cars? How much wheat and barley goes into beer vs. bread? Do people drink beer in lieu of eating toasted cereal for breakfast? I don't think so. So there's millions of gallons of ethanol that Budwiser makes instead of fuel, and that can be argued it takes away from the food supply. These are just questions to think about. Like my sig. says, I don't have all the answers. But my point is, I hope people look deeper. You can find fault with anything we do.

Originally Posted by gpsman1

Well, how many tanks are non-metal? I'm guessing only a few. Is the Prius a rare bird with the "bladder"? ( this is something I know very little about, what's it actually made of? ) Perhaps you refer to the meters or gauges? Well, I'm sure there are some non-metal parts there. In general though, I think all plastics and synthetic rubbers made after the mid-80's are ethanol resistant. I'll find out. I'm boosting to 75% ethanol in my non-flex car this week. I'm also confident that any degredation is a slow process, and the car in general will be worn out in a few years anyway.



How about the reverse? The majority of grapes are used for wine, not food or fuel. ( wine ethanol is nearly the same % as corn fermented ethanol... 12-15% per batch ) Would the world be better with less drunk driver "winos" if we diverted that grape ethanol to our cars? How much wheat and barley goes into beer vs. bread? Do people drink beer in lieu of eating toasted cereal for breakfast? I don't think so. So there's millions of gallons of ethanol that Budwiser makes instead of fuel, and that can be argued it takes away from the food supply. These are just questions to think about. Like my sig. says, I don't have all the answers. But my point is, I hope people look deeper. You can find fault with anything we do.
Thanks for reading. I appreciate the discussion and feedback. -John