2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

So tomorrow I am trading in my 2006 for a 2017 RAV4 hybrid. It broke my heart to not be buying another Ford as I have been a loyal Ford owner since I was a teenager. First non-Ford new car I have ever bought.


The RAV4 is a pretty nice ride. It has a lot more features than my current ride - amazing the stuff they have come up with in 12 years. :-) I got the lowest level of options (4444 package) and it is still loaded compared to my '06. And I am only paying a couple thousand more for it than I paid for my '06 when it was brand new. Getting $2200 as a trade in. Probably could have gotten more selling private party but it needs a couple things that I just didn't feel like doing.


Anyway, the lifetime numbers for the car are as follows:


115599 miles
3532.8 gallons of gas
32.721 mpg average
Best/worst tank 39.644/23.792
Gas savings versus the V6 Escape I previously had: $8667


Overall I still love the car but it is time. I am keeping my '05 for now. Maybe another year or so. Hard to tell.


Ray

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Congrats on the new vehicle. I've always been curious about the Rav4 Hybrid, so I'm hoping you'll post a comparison to the FEH after you've gotten a feel for the Rav4. Mainly interested in mileage and how well the AWD system works compared to the FEH.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Nice. Let us know your thoughts once you've figured stuff out. I believe Ford licensed a lot of the hybrid design from Toyota so the transmission and other EV components should be familiar to you.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

I've driven the Highlander hybrid quite a bit at work and have test driven the Lexus NX200h when it came out. The dual electric motor AWD setup Toyota has on these SUVs is quite different than the FEH. The Toyota's are more powerful, with more torque available down low for acceleration. The Rav4/NX200h should get the same or somewhat better MPG than FEHs (esp. for AWD).

Early AWD Highlanders would get stuck in deep snow but they fixed it by adding a switch to turn off traction control.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Where to start?

First of all, responding to bdginmo, it's not accurate to say For licensed the technology from Toyota - with an implication that they are therefore the same. It is well documented that Ford developed the Escape Hybrid's hybrid system in-house. It turned out the Ford system was so much like the existing Toyota system, that in order to avoid legal problems, Ford traded rights to some diesel patents in exchange for rights to the Toyota hybrid patents.

Turning to D-mac's post...

If the Lexus NX200h has awd, it's news to me. It is a small hatchback, not an SUV. Perhaps you were thinking of the Lexus RXxxxh.

The Toyota awd hybrid SUV's have three electric motors, not two. Two are in the cvt, and one is in the rear axle.

In contrast the awd Escape Hybrid powers the rear wheels with a driveshaft. That driveshaft is driven all the time, with an electronic clutch in the rear axle that variably engages depending on the output of a computer that monitors various parameters such as speed and throttle input. Thus, the Escape Hybrid's awd system is predictive. It engages when wheelspin is likely instead of waiting for wheelspin. It also engages if there is wheelspin.

Until the Rav4 Hybrid, Toyota's hybrid awd was reactive only (aka Slip&Grip). And therefore inferior to the Escape's system.

As for torque available for acceleration, I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between a gas engine supplemented by the hybrid electric system powering the front wheels directly and the rear ones via a driveshaft from the same combination; and a gas engine supplemented by the hybrid electric system powering the front wheels directly and the rear wheels directly by a third electric motor.

I suspect the Toyota's third electric motor would be subject to overheating in extended use such as in sand, and subsequent disengagement. But I've heard nothing from users experiences. Certainly my FEH's awd system has never disengaged despite, say, non-stop climbing on rough gravel roads from sea level to 4000'.

I would hope the NX200h would get better mileage than the Escape Hybrid. Since one is a small hatchback and the other is a small SUV, half of which have awd. The more comparable Highlander gets much inferior mileage to the Escape Hybrid, as it is larger and was saddled with an unnecessarily large V6. The Lexus RXxxxh's all get substantially worse mileage than the Escape Hybrid. Reports so far suggest the Rav4 Hybrid gets slightly better mileage than the Escape Hybrid. I would hope so as it is a 10+ year newer design and is more streamlined. In fact, the Escape's mileage is so good it suggests a very well done design.

I have seen no complaints that the Escape Hybrid is underpowered.

These awd hybrids may have a switch to enable/disable some functions, but they can never fully disable traction control. Traction control is necessary on hybrids because overspinning electric motors, such as with unlimited wheelspin, can damage electric motors.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Both of my own FEH were FWD only so I can't compare those to the new RAV4H but I do drive a '08 FEH AWD at work and from the last few snowstorms it seems that they are comparable as far as driveability in snow. My work FEH has much more aggressive (and non-LLR) tires so that probably helps some too. I will say that the RAV4H would blow away the FEH in acceleration and it seems much more comfortable at highway speeds than the FEH did.


So, overall, having had it for a couple weeks I am pleased. It seems like a great car. Roomy, comfortable, basic but with some of the bells and whistles the Escape didn't have. And in about 700 miles so far, I am averaging about 34 mpg with most of that in very cold weather. I think I will be pleased.


I still have the 2005 FEH and plan on keeping it for another couple years.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Thanks for the comparison. New cars always seem to be smoother than old ones. I've sometimes wondered how much of this is my imagination. The impression of "luxury" in a vehicle seems to depend most heavily on how quiet it is. The FEH certainly could be quieter at highway speeds. I lined mine with extra soundproofing, which gave it more of a feeling of being more upscale, deserved or not.

The '09 FEH had a larger engine and, I believe, some steering and/or suspension improvements compared to the '08. So the differences between a newer FEH and the Rav4 Hybrid should be less pronounced. But, not much you can do about a decade newer design.

Your mileage for cold weather is excellent. Depends on the temperature and driving, of course. If a '10-'12 awd FEH got, say, 31-32 in the same conditions, that would be a credit to the FEH. But if an FEH got 27 or so, it would make the Rav4 significantly more fuel efficient. It would be interesting to see what a '12 FEH would get in the same circumstances.

In very cold short trip/city driving, my FEH gets unimpressive mileage. As do all cars because they use so much fuel heating themselves up. Still a lot better than ordinary cars. Longer trips average out the fuel used for startup heating.

Hope you keep us posted on these impressions before your interest in the FEH's wanes.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

This post has a lot of interesting information. First, the Lexus NX is built on exactly the same unibody platform as the Toyota RAV4, which (I think most agree) is a SUV the same class as an Escape/MKC. How can the NX be a different (non-SUV) body style? Maybe I see your point though, SUVs like the Escape and RAV4 don't have body on frame construction of 'real' SUVs like the Jeep Wrangler or Ford Expedition.

Second, according to the info I see from Toyota, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have an 145hp single electric/gas motor mounted up front, and a 50KW electric motor mounted on the rear. I haven't seen anything mentioning two electric motors in the front with the gas ICE. Does Toyota not want to tell people about them?

For the 'predictive' AWD, it sounds like you are describing the multi-mode 4WD system like current Explorers and other SUVs have. You can set these 4WD systems for snow, rock, sand/gravel, or other conditions. But from what you describe, the FEH's AWD is so advanced that it doesn't need those mode settings and knows how to adjust for all conditions automatically. That's pretty cool my 2007 FEH could have a more advanced AWD system than a $50K+ 2017 Raptor, but why did Ford keep this a secret?

If electric motors can be damaged from spinning, how have pure electric vehicles been able to work for over 100 years without overheating? These motors have a 100% duty cycle. I haven't seen this overheating issue documented before.

Finally, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have a 0-60 time of about 8 secs, where the FEH AWD was about 11-12 secs as I recall. The 50KW rear motor really adds a lot of torque down low to help with acceleration.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

If I remember correctly, reverse in the FEH is ONLY electric motors and the ICE runs only to charge the battery, not move the car.


Tonight I had to take my work vehicle (2008 FEH AWD) to an offroad site through about 1/4 mile of unplowed snow about 15" deep. It did great going in but there was nowhere to turn around. I backed it all the way out. It did great but about halfway out the ICE was running hard to keep up.


If my Toyota wasn't brand new I'd have loved to take it out there and see how it would do.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

That's an interesting experiment. It does indicate the FEH's awd system can take a lot of load without anything overheating. I don't have the same confidence about Toyota's rear axle electric motor. The X-Trail had some sort of an electronic coupling for the rear wheels that was known to overheat and disengage under prolonged use. But that was not a motor.

Toyota would have had to decide between how much weight or capacity for the rear electric motor and how long it would supply power. Along my meanderings for this topic I came across a claim that in reverse the Toyota setup uses only the rear electric motor. Which seemed odd to me. Unless it really does have only one electric motor in the transmission.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

In your first post you referred to the Lexus RX200h. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least in my market there is no 200h. There is a CT200H and an NX200t, but not an NX200H. The hybrid version of the NX200t is the NX300H. So, when I referred to the non-existent NX200h as being a small hatchback, it was because your mention of a NX200h threw me off. I agree that the NX300h, which you probably meant, is the same platform as the Rav4 Hybrid.

While trying to find proof that the Rav4 Hybrid has 3 electric motors, I came across an odd thing. Most car reviews about it state that it has two electric motors, one of which is in the rear axle. None of the reviews go into any detail or don't even mention the transmission used. They do consistently claim that the Rav4 Hybrid uses Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD). HSD is used across the range of Toyota hybrids, and one of the signature features is that the cvt contains two electric motors. If the Rav4 Hybrid uses HSD, then by definition it has a total of 3 electric motors. Automotive journalists are notorious for factual errors about hybrids, and also take shortcuts where they think their audience doesn't care. I've seen a review of the Escape Hybrid that claimed the awd version used a third electric motor to power the rear wheels, which certainly was not true.

I am not describing the Escape Hybrid's awd system as the multi-mode 4wd system. My guess is that multi-mode 4wd is a marketing term applied to the same system as the Escape Hybrid's, but with the addition of some software controls that either purport to match certain conditions, or actually fine tune the system for those conditions. The Escape's system, besides monitoring for wheelspin, also monitors speed, throttle position and steering wheel position, among other things. So, for instance, when you pull away from a stop, it automatically engages the back wheels - because wheelspin is likely when pulling away from a stop. In that sense it does magically control the rear wheel engagement for all conditions and without driver control. I know it works surprisingly well, and I have driven a variety of less and more capable vehicles in conditions that took them to their limits. Multi-mode 4wd, as I said, probably is based on the same setup, but may or may not make it work better.

Edit: I should add that the engagement of the rear wheels is variable, depending on the calculations of the computer that monitors the sensors. I've set up a gauge to watch the degree of engagement of the rear wheel electronic clutch, and when it is not zero, it is constantly changing.

Manufacturers don't necessarily disclose all the technology in their cars. For instance, the Escape of the vintage we're discussing had something called pull/drift technology. They have electric steering. In some circumstances, such as a constant side wind or a sharply crowned road, the steering wheel has to be constantly pushed to stay on track against the tendency to be pushed off the road. The electric steering senses this after a while, and adds that input by itself. This is supposed to relieve muscle strain on the driver. Ford never mentioned this feature.

Overspin. Just look it up if you don't think electric motors can be damaged by it. I'm not sure if the danger is overheating or physical damage. The early Prius had a problem that the traction control system used to protect an electric motor against overspin was so aggressive that they would pretty well refuse to move if they got any wheelspin. To cure that the control was backed off to allow some limited wheelspin.
Just do a search for "prius overspin".

I will grant you that the 0-60 times for the Toyotas is much better than the FEH. I do doubt many people buy these things for drag racing. And presumably if you use that capability much it will hurt the mileage.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

The other day I was in a situation where I had to move out from a stop and turn sharply at the same time. (Getting out of a parallel parking spot.) The curbside rear tire was on bare pavement and the street side tire was on sand on the pavement. As I made the move, the street side tire spun part of a rotation on the gravel, stopped and spun a bit again. Which indicated power was being applied to the rear wheels, even though I was barely moving. And the front tires never spun.

A more basic slip&grip awd system would not have engaged the rear wheels unless the front wheels spun.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Hey Ray,

32MPG? Wow. My 2006 FEH ~ 30 until recentl, down to 28.5 now.
Any tips?

Fletch

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Almost all AWD systems work this way, distributing and redistributing torque to those axles/wheels with traction through open differentials many times per second (only takes 16 milliseconds for Ford's to react). To generalize, some AWDs have a more even 50/50 front/rear distribution (Subaru, Audi quattro) , some more FWD biased (like the Ford Escape and other small SUVs), and still others are more RWD biased (Mercedes 4Matic, BMW XDrive, Infiniti, Lexus, etc.) You can see this in action with comparisons in numerous YouTube videos. There's actually many subtle differences in these AWD systems even within the same manufacturer and different models.

Re: 2006 FEH to 2017 RAV4H
 

Drive gently, coast to traffic lights when practical, avoid warmups and extended idling, keep it maintained, watch tire pressure, use air conditioning and defroster only when needed and slow down. I'd guess that 90% of the miles on mine was commuting to work and home. I had a 24 mile ride each way that was almost ideal for the hybrid. I took full advantage of that.