Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Hey all,

I have a '05 FEH and love it. I want to replace my wife's car with an FEH at some point....but want to get a few more years/miles out of it (2003 Pontiac Vibe). However, my fear is that the tax credits for the FEh will run out before I am seriously in the mkt for one (i.e. Ford will sell 60k FEHs before late 2010-2011).

Just curious, has anyone heard anything about the Mazda tribute Hybrid (MTH)? The MTH I heard is just a rebadged FEh and should be about the same. Also, the "clock" starts at zero...so maybe there will still be a tax credit in 2010.

IRS put out a memo certifying it for the same amt as the FEH...but can't find info on it anywhere. Mazda USA has nothing on their website. I called 3 local Mazda dealers and none of them knew anything.

What's up? You'd think Mazda(aka Ford) would at least tell us something. Is it on sale yet? Limited to certain state? ????

(PS.--My rationale is that Mazda is a different manufacturer from Ford, therefore entitled to it's own 60,000 hybrids--Unlike Mercury which has to share with the FEH.)

Nate

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

From what I have read, it is not a re-badged FEH. Its a Tribute body and interior, with the hybrid drivetrain.

Now, just my own speculatoin, the MTH might be dragging its feet a bit, since Ford can't keep up with its existing FEH and MMH orders. Why add the MTH into the mix, if it will only result in more unhappy potential customers who can't get their hands on one?

BTW, I believe you are correct that the IRS deems Mazda to be separate from FMC, and therefore, gets its own 60,000 count.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

According to this article on cars.com, the MTH is supposed to be hitting the dealerships any day now:

http://www.cars.com/go/features/auto...Tribute+Hybrid

No "real" word on it so far though, as far as Google can find.

Very Curious, no...................?????????????

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

The MTH, like the MMH, is a rebadged FEH. With the exception of suspension tuning, the differences between them are almost entirely cosmetic. All three are built on the same line by the same people from the same parts. AFAIK, the MTH is currently only for sale in California and that's why it's difficult to get information about it. Not sure but I think that, like the Altima Hybrid, if you don't live in a state where's it's available your local dealer can't help you.

Regardless, this raises an interesting (to me anyway) question as far as the 60,000 unit IRS tax credit limit. Do all mechanically identical units get pooled? If not, couldn't Toyota get around the limit by re-badging the Prius and selling it as a Scion? Is there a Scion Prismo in our future?

In Canada, the Honda Civic is also badged and sold as the Acura CSX. What if I could go down to my Acura dealer and buy an Acura CSX Hybrid? Would that count toward the 60,000 unit limit on Civic Hybrids sold by Honda? I think the IRS combines mechanically-identical vehicles into one number. As such, I believe FEH and MMH numbers are pooled, and that means any MTHs sold will also count toward the 60,000 units.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I believe the difference, Ford does not own Mazda. Mazda is an independent company, with its own CEO, that Ford just happens to have 49% of its stock. Ford does own Mercury, though. There is no Mercury CEO.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I believe this to be correct. If you read the IRS releases, they pool the FEH/MMH together. (The latest sales numbers has the credit amount for both the FEH and MMH and also verbage "Ford Motor Co has sold...XXX hybrid units...).

Nate

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Toyota couldn't rebadge the Prius as a Scion....it wouldn't help as Toyota, Lexus and Scion are all the same manufacturer. If you look, the Lexus credits are phasing out along with the Toyota ones.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Like I said before, this does raise interesting questions.

Does Mazda have its own 60,000 unit threshold, since it's only part-owned? Would the MTH qualify, or would it be lumped in with the FEH like the Mariner?

As many of us know, Mazda's media site is shared with Ford. And of course Mazda-branded products made in the U.S. and Canada are made in plants that also produce Ford-branded products. I wonder what, specifically is the IRS test for what makes a "manufacturer"? Ownership?

Ford (for now anyway) owns Volvo. Would Volvo hybrids count toward Ford's total, or does Volvo and Jaguar get its own allocation? Hmmm. Ditto with SAAB and GM, and so many others.

:confused:

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Sux! :angry:

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Not hybrid related, and more off topic, but I would have leaned towards the Tribute of only because you could lie 48"xXX sheet goods (e.g. plywood etc...) flat as the interior was a bit wider (as I recall) . How Ford missed that I don't understand. Anyone try that in a 2008 FEH?

Cheers,

rcomeau

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

The Tribute, Mariner and Escape have always been essentially identical and shared nearly identical interior dimensions and cargo capacities. There's no significant differences between them, aside from cosmetic aspects and suspension tuning.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

The specs for the Tribute show a 49" cargo area width (between quarter trims) while the FEH has 44.2 and 40.8 (depending on where you measure). I just realiazed it was a mute point as the tailgate is only 43" wide!

Cheers,

rcomeau

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I think you may also be comparing non-hybrid specs to hybrid specs. The cargo area in all three vehicles is the same size, and the hybrid versions of each are slightly narrower than their non-hybrid counterparts.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Back when I bought my '05 FEH, my friends at Ford explained that it's really the other way around. The Tribute (the normal one -- not the hybrid) is the original car -- engineered by Mazda. The Escape & Mariners are actually re-styled & re-badged Tributes.

But the 'Hybrid' version was engineered by Ford in Dearborn (not by Mazda).

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

However, I don't think of them as simply "rebadged" versions of each other. Try to put an '05 Tribute tailgate onto an '05 Escape, or put '08 Mariner tail lights onto an '08 Escape. They don't fit.

At least to me, "rebadged" means, except for the badges themselves, the vehicle body/interior parts are all interchangeable.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Let's go with "reskinned" then.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Same engineering, same undercarriage, same drivetrain, same dimensions.

Frankly I'd call the Mariner a "rebadged" Escape, because it LOOKS like most of the sheetmetal is the same and the plastic moldings and stuff is the difference (at least on the '05-07 models, haven't seen enough of the '08s). Now from what I've seen of '06 Tributes I'd have to agree, there appear to be significant sheetmetal differences including the tail gate openings and rear windows etc.... "reskinned" sounds good to a "third party" listening in to your conversation :)

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

These terms have a relatively accepted usage already, so we don't need to establish our own.

"Rebadged" isn't literal. It means the vehicles vary cosmetically but are essentially identical, that they share a platform and use mostly identical parts underneath. This can get confusing, especially considering that the Tribute is now a near copy of the Escape, but was previously unique enough in certain ways for some consumers to begin believing it was a unique vehicle.

As for details: Tailgate is uniquely contoured for '08 Mariner but is interchangeable with the others. Rear gate/glass, hood etc on the 02-06 Tribute was unique, now the same as Escape. Previously unique 02-06 Mazda stampings and dash are also now the same. '08 Tribute shares the Escape hood, but Mariner's hood continues to be unique. '08 taillights are interchangeable in body and tailgate, but won't necesarily line up with rear fascias. The point is that the "body in white" is identical and they share near-identical critical measurements. They are, for most practical intents and purposes, the same vehicle.

"Reskinned" is generally used to mean the chassis and mechanical "hard points" are the same, but sheet metal varies. Critical measurements can vary enough to matter, as can drivetrains. Examples include the Impala/LaCrosse/Grand Prix and the Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX, etc

As for who made what first, Madza developed the architecture for Ford from the Mazda 626/Capella platform. The 2008 version continues to use this same (rather old now) architecture.

Some people wonder why "badge engineering" is still popular, and becoming even more so. The fact that even some of us have been convinced that the Tribute is somehow a "unique" vehicle is all the reason the makers need to continue the practice. They do it because it works, consumers appreciate the choices, and it saves them tremendous amounts of money.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I thought the '08 Mariner tail lights were larger than the '08 Escape, and therefore would not even fit onto an Escape. Well, unless you change out the rear bumper cover too.

I am old enough to actually remember when "rebadged" actually meant rebadged. The only differences were the badging and, sometimes, the front grill. But then again, the grill is part of the badging.

One of my close friends ordered a Voyager and it came thru with the Caravan grill. :D

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I just contacted a Mazda dealer. They are suppposedly NOT in production yet, and will only be in limited production in California in the future.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

WTF.....:angry:

Why go to all the trouble of developing a hybrid (even if it is just an FEH spinoff) if you're going to sell it in one state. Stupid....

Nate

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Its all about federal tax cuts. Not making the customer happy.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

From Mazda's own website...

"The 2008 Tribute HEV is being made in a production run of about 350 vehicles and sold in select areas of California."

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Mainly its all about trying to turn a profit.... something Ford unfortuantely MUST concentrate on right now. Sometimes that interferes, such as producing yet another variation of a vehicle that isn't selling as well as they would like and looses money for them.

Now... that being said... I'll be darned as to why they are even bothering to build 350 Mazda Tribute Hybrids.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Because Mazda can now attend the Hybrid Builders conventions in HI, and say "me too!" :shade:

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

That's probably the extent of it.
Just for PR and Photo Ops.
Not unlike the "Twenty" Flex-Fuel FEH's Ford built.
I've been asking for one of those for 2 years.
So far, I've heard only 20 were built for "demo" purposes.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

In thinking about this, I am surprised that making just 350 of them, is even worth the cost of changing the hybrid "fig leaf" emblem design, and the Mazda emblem'ed engine cover. They make a lot more than just 350 of the MMH, and it doesn't even get its own Mercury emblem'ed engine cover.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I am betting its a tax issue. Maybe something to do with being allowed to sell vehicles in California.

To do such a small test market, must have an alternative motive.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I'll bet Mazda is doing it to bring up the EPA average across the board for their fleet of vehicles being offered to the public.

The 350 unit number might be what is required to have the vehicle counted.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I talked to an exec at Mazda recently, here's the skinny:

They want to build MTH's. They're just in a "last in line" situation with the packs going to the FEH/MMH, which is severely limiting their production capabilities, as they don't have enough to mass produce and sell them until their supply problems are cleared up. There is no plan for it to be sold only in California, but that's where the initial run will be sold mostly because that's where the buyers are, and they can't afford to have a single MTH sit around on any dealer lots, or face a situation where certain dealers get a single MTH to sell nationwide.

They are also in a situation where they'd like to increase their hybrid offerings, but have been encountering some resistance from Ford/Mercury. While the person I talked to didn't know what the status of the Ford Fusion Hybrid's release will have, the big point was that right now, they just don't have packs to build models, and really want that situation to change; they're planning on selling the MTH in all 50 states once they have the ability to do so.

If anything, he seemed almost as frustrated as we are about the situation, if not more so.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

It is a corporate wide average, across all vehicles sold. I would not think that 350 hybrids would be insignificant against the grand total number of Mazda vehicles sold for the 2008 my.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I agree that the number of units may not be significant. However, I was just stating that 350 may be the number required to have the vehicle counted in their average.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Due to parts supply problems previously mentioned, as well as the fact that battery technology is still not where Ford thought it would be by this time, the Tribute Hybrid program was delayed and eventually scrapped for the previous generation. It looked feasible for the 2008 model year. The plan was to start smaller this time and initially roll out in a historically high demand market (CA), similar to Nissan and the Altima Hybrid.

CAFE standards are by manufacturer, not brand. There isn't a Mazda or Mercury or Volvo standard, but rather a set of individual fleet standards broken down by vehicle type and weighted by total sales. A general explanation of fleet makeup and calculation methods can be found here for those interested

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm

What's really important is that alt-fuel vehicles often earn CAFE credits for the manufacturer. When Ford missed the number, there was no fine because they had earned offset credits. That is one of the justifications for a maker to sell hybrids at a loss: It allows them to make & sell less-efficient but more-profitable vehicles without worrying about CAFE so much. It's also one reasons hybrids sell primarily in the USA.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

As I understand technically this is not true. At least 30 previous-generation MTHs were made and given to fire departments in Southern California. They were given CAFE certs as well...maybe a few are in private hands now?

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

It's true. The project was scrapped and no regular production MTH were ever offered for sale. Pre-production prototype eunits were "given" out but had to be returned to Ford. Same as the taxi experiment they did with the FEH.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

I own a Mazda Tribute Hybrid and enjoy the looks and questions I get when I drive it or show it to friends,. Considering I live in Las Vegas and had to go threw great means to acquire it in California. With such a limited run in production I really wanted to get my hands on one. Not to mention the $3000.00 tax credit you get when you own one.

Re: Mazda Tribute Hybrid?? (Little FEH content)
 

Hey Nate;
Don't know where you live...but come on out to Cali and buy your MTH. Combine it with some vacation time, and get your tax credit too. What a deal!!
Jill