Problems with ICE shutoff
#51
12-13-2006, 06:38 PM
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
"..In addition, the FEH predates the RX400h...."
Only based on market availibility. The market introduction of the Ford Explorer V6 Hybrid (FEH 2) was delayed almost three years from the initially announced product introduction date. It is my understanding that the initial Ford Explorer Hybrid design was to address FE in the same way the FEH has but the original FEH design could not be upscaled to meet Ford Explorer requirements and still pass emissions. So it was willingly licensed to Toyota for the Lexus RX400h at a CHEAP price so as not to waste all the time and effort Ford engineers had put into the design.
Lets all go the the RX400 site and let them know what they got!
GaryG
Only based on market availibility. The market introduction of the Ford Explorer V6 Hybrid (FEH 2) was delayed almost three years from the initially announced product introduction date. It is my understanding that the initial Ford Explorer Hybrid design was to address FE in the same way the FEH has but the original FEH design could not be upscaled to meet Ford Explorer requirements and still pass emissions. So it was willingly licensed to Toyota for the Lexus RX400h at a CHEAP price so as not to waste all the time and effort Ford engineers had put into the design.
Lets all go the the RX400 site and let them know what they got!
GaryG
As I said, I'm pretty sure that the FEH hybrid design predates the Explorer Hybrid design, making the FEH predate the Explorer Hybrid, and the RX400H designs. Remember, they had something like 6 years of testing and development, as I recall. (Though I shouldn't have added it as factlike, I'll admit, as it may call into question the rest of my post, but I didn't think it would've been too strenuously looked at.)
Oh, and as an aside, had the Explorer Hybrid been launched, the naming nomenclature would've been a nightmare. FEH. Ford Escape Hybrid, Ford Explorer Hybrid. Maybe we would've had FEH and FE8H or something. FEH2 would be worse, when the second generation rolled by, because then what? FEH-2, FEH2-2? No way that would've worked! Perhaps FExH, but who's to know? Just a thought.
#52
12-13-2006, 07:51 PM
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
As I said, I'm pretty sure that the FEH hybrid design predates the Explorer Hybrid design, making the FEH predate the Explorer Hybrid, and the RX400H designs. Remember, they had something like 6 years of testing and development, as I recall. (Though I shouldn't have added it as factlike, I'll admit, as it may call into question the rest of my post, but I didn't think it would've been too strenuously looked at.)
Oh, and as an aside, had the Explorer Hybrid been launched, the naming nomenclature would've been a nightmare. FEH. Ford Escape Hybrid, Ford Explorer Hybrid. Maybe we would've had FEH and FE8H or something. FEH2 would be worse, when the second generation rolled by, because then what? FEH-2, FEH2-2? No way that would've worked! Perhaps FExH, but who's to know? Just a thought.
Oh, and as an aside, had the Explorer Hybrid been launched, the naming nomenclature would've been a nightmare. FEH. Ford Escape Hybrid, Ford Explorer Hybrid. Maybe we would've had FEH and FE8H or something. FEH2 would be worse, when the second generation rolled by, because then what? FEH-2, FEH2-2? No way that would've worked! Perhaps FExH, but who's to know? Just a thought.
GaryG
#53
12-13-2006, 08:27 PM
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
As I said, I'm pretty sure that the FEH hybrid design predates the Explorer Hybrid design, making the FEH predate the Explorer Hybrid, and the RX400H designs. Remember, they had something like 6 years of testing and development, as I recall. (Though I shouldn't have added it as factlike, I'll admit, as it may call into question the rest of my post, but I didn't think it would've been too strenuously looked at.)
Oh, and as an aside, had the Explorer Hybrid been launched, the naming nomenclature would've been a nightmare. FEH. Ford Escape Hybrid, Ford Explorer Hybrid. Maybe we would've had FEH and FE8H or something. FEH2 would be worse, when the second generation rolled by, because then what? FEH-2, FEH2-2? No way that would've worked! Perhaps FExH, but who's to know? Just a thought.
Oh, and as an aside, had the Explorer Hybrid been launched, the naming nomenclature would've been a nightmare. FEH. Ford Escape Hybrid, Ford Explorer Hybrid. Maybe we would've had FEH and FE8H or something. FEH2 would be worse, when the second generation rolled by, because then what? FEH-2, FEH2-2? No way that would've worked! Perhaps FExH, but who's to know? Just a thought.
GaryG
#54
12-13-2006, 09:04 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
I've been away from the computer for a while and I see I missed quite a lot!
#1. I live near Denver. At a mile high altitute, there is 15% less air.
#2. I'm getting better gas mileage than nearly everyone.
#3. Ford Hybrid Engineers told me directly, that higher altitude = better fuel economy, and were not surprised at my results. Higher altitude means my throttle is open 15% wider ALL the time, and near WOT more of the time.
#4. You get the most power per gallon at WOT.
#5. The difference of oxygen content with altitude is significant. (see #1).
#6. The difference of oxygen content with temperature is insignificant.
#7. The reason why cold air is BAD for fuel economy is that cold air = cold fuel and cold fuel is harder to ignite and/or it ignites more slowly, and does not burn as completely. Remember, liquid gasoline does not burn. Only gasoline vapor will burn.
Cold, dense intake airflow, along with the "appropriate" level of fuel mixed in, allows the engine to operate at a lower RPM to produce a given level of HP, reduced frictional losses..
Much the same effect as switching to a higher octane fuel.
If your statements were correct then FE should improve with altitute, and we all know that it doesn't.
That being said I'm sure that there is a point wherein the incoming airflow would be too cold for efficient combustion but I'm not sure any of us will experience that level outside of Prudhole Bay.
#1. I live near Denver. At a mile high altitute, there is 15% less air.
#2. I'm getting better gas mileage than nearly everyone.
#3. Ford Hybrid Engineers told me directly, that higher altitude = better fuel economy, and were not surprised at my results. Higher altitude means my throttle is open 15% wider ALL the time, and near WOT more of the time.
#4. You get the most power per gallon at WOT.
#5. The difference of oxygen content with altitude is significant. (see #1).
#6. The difference of oxygen content with temperature is insignificant.
#7. The reason why cold air is BAD for fuel economy is that cold air = cold fuel and cold fuel is harder to ignite and/or it ignites more slowly, and does not burn as completely. Remember, liquid gasoline does not burn. Only gasoline vapor will burn.
Cold, dense intake airflow, along with the "appropriate" level of fuel mixed in, allows the engine to operate at a lower RPM to produce a given level of HP, reduced frictional losses..
Much the same effect as switching to a higher octane fuel.
If your statements were correct then FE should improve with altitute, and we all know that it doesn't.
That being said I'm sure that there is a point wherein the incoming airflow would be too cold for efficient combustion but I'm not sure any of us will experience that level outside of Prudhole Bay.
#55
12-14-2006, 08:19 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
Ford engineering.......
Isn't that the engineering team that decided to lower the inflation pressure on the Ford Explorer tires in order to increase it stability against rollovers...??
Oh, sorry, I guess its now called the Ford EXPLODER....!
Isn't that the engineering team that decided to lower the inflation pressure on the Ford Explorer tires in order to increase it stability against rollovers...??
Oh, sorry, I guess its now called the Ford EXPLODER....!
#56
12-14-2006, 11:31 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
Sorry, apologies to ALL...
I started out comparing the Prius hybrid design with the FEH/MMH and posts started to pop up indicating that they were of different "origins" and therefore cannot be compared.
From there we wandered off into the engineering design issue and I inadvertently started contributing on my part to denegrating the Ford engineering staff.
While I remain FIRMLY convinced that the two designs, FEH/MMH and Prius, are very much alike and my comparisons are therefore valid I regret my contributions in denegrating the Ford engineering team.
I was a loyal Ford customer from my very first purchase, a used 1956, up until 1991 when I gave up my 1984 T-Bird Elan for a new 1992 LS400, and my loyalties have been with Lexus ever since. I guess I remain a fairly loyal Ford customer in that I still own a 1994 AWD Aerostar and a 1993 Ford Ranger PU.
Traveling in computer sales throughout the NW I put over 200,000 miles on a Ford Country Squire station wagon and then close to the same on a 1972 "same".
And I really, REALLY, don't think there is anything wrong with "cloning"(***) a good design. In my personal opinion if I were making the decisions at Ford I would immediately clone the Lexus LS series but with, as, a hybrid V6.
***Having now successfully "cloned" the DEC PDP-11, Data General's Nova & Eclipse, and Hewlett-Packard's HP-1000.
I started out comparing the Prius hybrid design with the FEH/MMH and posts started to pop up indicating that they were of different "origins" and therefore cannot be compared.
From there we wandered off into the engineering design issue and I inadvertently started contributing on my part to denegrating the Ford engineering staff.
While I remain FIRMLY convinced that the two designs, FEH/MMH and Prius, are very much alike and my comparisons are therefore valid I regret my contributions in denegrating the Ford engineering team.
I was a loyal Ford customer from my very first purchase, a used 1956, up until 1991 when I gave up my 1984 T-Bird Elan for a new 1992 LS400, and my loyalties have been with Lexus ever since. I guess I remain a fairly loyal Ford customer in that I still own a 1994 AWD Aerostar and a 1993 Ford Ranger PU.
Traveling in computer sales throughout the NW I put over 200,000 miles on a Ford Country Squire station wagon and then close to the same on a 1972 "same".
And I really, REALLY, don't think there is anything wrong with "cloning"(***) a good design. In my personal opinion if I were making the decisions at Ford I would immediately clone the Lexus LS series but with, as, a hybrid V6.
***Having now successfully "cloned" the DEC PDP-11, Data General's Nova & Eclipse, and Hewlett-Packard's HP-1000.
#57
12-14-2006, 12:03 PM
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
"The eCVT is manufactured by Aisin AW specifically for Escape."
An Aisin engineer wrote the SAE paper for the Prius trans...
The Explorer was a mild hybrid if I remember right. ISG.
An Aisin engineer wrote the SAE paper for the Prius trans...
The Explorer was a mild hybrid if I remember right. ISG.
#58
12-14-2006, 12:15 PM
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
From everything I've heard (two bothers in the auto industry as engineers one for Ford) and a Father at a Dealership. The engineering team did no such thing. The story is that customers found the ride harsh. SOME DEALERSHIPS suggested lowering the inflation pressure to improve the ride and make it softer. The engineering team never suggested lowering the tire pressure and certainly not to help prevent rollovers. I'm not sure where you heard that story, but they had their facts wrong.
#59
12-14-2006, 01:16 PM
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
Here is the Aisin-AW webpage that describes the eCVT they make with Ford (to a Ford specified design).
http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/02produ...hev/index.html
#60
12-14-2006, 01:36 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: Problems with ICE shutoff
From everything I've heard (two bothers in the auto industry as engineers one for Ford) and a Father at a Dealership. The engineering team did no such thing. The story is that customers found the ride harsh. SOME DEALERSHIPS suggested lowering the inflation pressure to improve the ride and make it softer. The engineering team never suggested lowering the tire pressure and certainly not to help prevent rollovers. I'm not sure where you heard that story, but they had their facts wrong.
