How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I have a 2006 HCHII that I bought Memorial Day weekend with just 42k miles. It seemed to be working great for a few weeks, and it started to get warmer in the DC area (approx 70 at night and 80-90 during the day).

Now it seems for the past few weeks, every single morning when I go to work I incur a forced regen. Sometimes I will even have one driving home (making this a 1-2x per day average).

It doesn't matter if I take a hilly city route through downtown DC (approx 15 mi) to work, or if I take a mostly highway speeds route (approx 22 mi) depending on my mood.

Automatic climate control is on at around 75-78 degrees, and I don't have any accessories plugged in 90% of the time except for when I need to charge my cell phone.

Any ideas?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Just to add on to this, when I first got the car my avg mpg per tank according to the built-in display was between 40-43 mpg... Now this number has dropped to 32-36.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

One of your batteries (IMA or 12V) may require replacement soon.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I know it's difficult to do anything to diagnose the IMA battery myself, but how about the 12V? Can I do anything with a voltmeter?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Have you looked at the indicator window on the 12 volt? is it showing blue/red, or just clear?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

For me using the AC at all is a big factor in how many regens I get. I drive almost exclusively in city traffic, and without using the AC I get regens maybe one every few weeks and about 40-45 mpg average. With the AC once I get regens several times a day and my mpg goes down to 35 or so. Without AC it's great, but do I want to sweat that much? I'm a little disillusioned with the Civic hybrid design.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

> How many forced regens is too many?

Is there a glossary anywhere around here? I think I know what you mean by 'forced regen' but am not altogether sure...

Benton 22jul09

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Normally the car will only recharge it's batteries during deceleration or braking. Forced regen occurs when the battery level drops to low, at that point it starts charging the battery during normal driving, which can really hurt fuel economy.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

You are experiencing something which seems to be "normal" during high temperatures and heavy A/C use. The IMA system is affected by the high demands during hot temperatures.

While a faulty 12V battery can be at the root of the problem you may need to see if easing off the A/C helps out. These issues have been reported frequenrly in the last few weeks. This leads me to think that temperatures are what's causing these concerns.

Good luck!

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

My understanding is that when you see the state-of-charge indicator suddenly drop to the bottom, coupled with forced charging under all driving conditions, what is happening is:

The state-of-charge and the car's computer's perception of that state-of-charge have gotten out of sync. The computer has realized this, and is doing a procedure that recalibrates it's perception to the actual state of charge.

I'm not sure that this means your IMA battery is low or near failure, just that there's this out-of-sync problem. Disconnecting your 12 volt battery (effectively erasing the computer's memory) will precipitate the same recalibration.

OTOH, maybe frequent recalibration cycles are a sign that the IMA is behaving "unpredictably", outside of the computer's expectations, and this might be a sign of an ailing IMA battery. Just speculating.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Hi,

I noticed my hybrid was doing a lot of forced regens...but I thought it was because the temperature here in Houston was topping 100 every day. Turns out my IMA battery was about to fail (which it just did). I'm not trying to alarm you; there are many possible explanations for what your car is doing. Using air conditioning, I find, encourages forced regens. But you might want to have your dealer run a diagnostic on the IMA battery.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Just to clarify: are we talking battery recalibrations (crashes) or forced regen? A battery recal is when you go from 5+ bars to one almost instantly. Forced regen is when your SOC is used up normally down to a point when your car tries to regen even when accellerating, and stops you from entering glide.

If you are experiencing battery crashes, searching will help you find more information about them. I have an '06 and experience frequent crashes. It used to happen daily last summer, but I'm back to once a week this summer (new commute=bigger hills). I've had this looked at by the dealership on two occasions last summer and they weren't able to help. I've been logging the date, temp and location of every recalibration since last July, and I plan on trying the dealership again when I hit 15% on the MM, even though my problem isn't as bad as it was last summer.

I am hoping for a software upgrade to help with this problem, although the upgrades they gave me last summer actually seemed to make things a little worse since they increased the assist affinity. I'm hoping that they have finally figured out something that will specifically address the recalibration issue that some '06s seem to have.



Here are some things that others have reported help minimize the problem:

1. Run your AC in auto mode, not "AC on".
2. Use a sun shade when parking for both the front and rear window to keep temps down.
3. Help cool the car by driving with all windows down at first before using AC
4. Check your 12 volt battery and make sure it is working correctly

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I was talking about forced regens, I have never had a battery recal. I have a 08 with about 5000 miles, when do you normally start seeing recals?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

We own a 09 with almost 8k miles on it and have not seen a recal. It does force regen but never over two bars. And only when the pack gets down to 3 or 4 bars.

We do all we can carpooling on our daily grind to stay out of the A/C and we will see our first winter in the car soon. The miles will stack up on the car fast for us. If it shows signs of being a issue it will get traded very fast.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Our 06 with 55K miles started doing this in May, right before the extreme temperatures here in Austin.

We are seeing regen once or twice a day ... typically after a short drive to a store, restaurant, etc. and then within a mile or so after leaving there, falls to one bar of charge.

Dealer has done all the software updates but still seeing mileage in the mid-30s. In past summers we got low 40s with constant A/C use. The svc. manager says the diagnostics do not show them any further things to try.

We had replaced the 12V battery in April (Honda-sourced) shortly before this started, but since it's new assume is not a factor.

Our salesperson at the dealer is being very solicitous and also asked us to log our regens as a troubleshooting step.

Where there's smoke, there's fire. These posts are pointing to a fatal flaw in the product, perhaps one that even Honda doesn't know the solution to. I would bet these symptoms would go away immediately with a new IMA battery, and I'll bet Honda is trying to "manage" a significant warranty exposure through these software tweaks.

My wife doesn't understand this, but since the car runs and takes us from place A to place B, it is not 'broken' ... it just doesn't provide all the benefit/FE we bought it for. Is that a failure that the mfg should correct at great expense under warranty?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Just to keep terminology straight, that is what we refer to as a battery crash or a recalibration (recal). This thread has started calling it a forced regen which is a different thing in the HCH II.

My dealership installed Tsb 09-058 on my car yesterday to try and help the problem. At first blush (about 50 miles of driving), things seem positive. I haven't had a crash, I actually dropped down to 3 bars of SoC at one point (previously, the only time I ever saw less than 4 bars was after a crash or in serious mountain driving).

I'm hoping that this is a sign of better battery management, and I will post up on the Tsb thread in a few weeks with my experience. Positives so far are that it goes into regen more often in normal driving, but the assist affinity has also increased (a negative in my book).

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I bought a 2009 HCH in May. The first month or so, things were great. I got 48.3 my first tank, then the next 3 were all 52-55. Then we got into July in Phoenix (daytime highs over 110 for a couple of weeks in a row) and things went to crap. I am having forced regens at least once a day. These are almost always right after I leave from work, so I have a couple of miles of surface street stop and go driving before getting to the freeway, and because of the insane heat, I am running the a/c at full blast. It also doesn't help that I am hitting the temperature cutoff where IMA doesn't run at all. My mileage for the last 3 fillups have all been around 43.

So I'm pretty sure that's just expected, and although I would have appreciated if the dealer had warned me, I'm not concerned about it.

I am a little concerned about the battery crashes though. 2-3 times a week, in addition to the forced regens, I am getting what you are describing as a battery crash. I'll start the car with the battery well above halfway. When I get to the first stoplight 1/4 mile away, in the space of about 30 seconds, the battery will drain itself and then start a forced regen. During the really hot part of the summer, it was happening near daily on my way home. The last week or so it's only happened 2 or 3 times. Is this just heat or A/C related? Can I count on it going back to normal once the temps are back under 100? Should I take it to the dealer to make sure?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

The batteries for the IMA do not like heat - they will self discharge if the temperature inside the car gets to 120 F.

Crack the windows and put a shade in the front and rear windows, If you can get tinted windows with UV refect- that will help with the sun on the side windows. Walmart and Target ( and most Auto parts places ) sell sun powered windows fans to change the air in the car.

You can slow the discharge rate - you will not have to regen as often. The 100+ F we have out east is doing the same thing here.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

There's nice article over at cleanmpg.com about the hows and whys of IMA battery re-calibrations, specific to the HCHII. It may give you some perspective on what to do about your re-cals.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I agree fully with Tommy's comments - I believe there is a serious design flaw with this vehicle and it will cost Honda a small fortune to fix it if they can fix it at all. I spoke to an attorney and he suggested I sell the car as suing would cost too much.

My local Honda dealer just upgraded all of the car's software including the one listed in the latest service bulletin. 2 1/2 miles after leaving the dealership, I had my first recal. 10 miles later my second. 12 miles later my third.

I never thought I would say this as my car has been a pleasure for the first 2 1/2 years of ownership but the only the that is worse than the vehicles current performance is American's Honda's handling of the problem. Unless Honda corrects the problem, they will have lost me as a future customer and I will never recommend their products again.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

My girlfriend tried to convince me not to get a Honda, I should have listened but I liked them and it was the only hybrid I could stand looking at. I won't buy another Honda, I've had mine for almost a year and there are to many things that bug me about it.

I'm going to trade it in on something, not sure what yet, but I do like that Volt, though I will have to wait for that.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I've only had one recal since the 09-58 TSB was put on three weeks ago, and I've done a combination of my usual driving, as well as some very taxing mountain driving loaded with bikes, so I've had a different experience than you ppgroup.

Cyrion, if you're unhappy with Honda's version 3.0 hybrid, I'm sure you're really going to love GM's 1.0 Volt...

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I expect the Volt will have some problems, as it is a new model with no real world experience. However this model of the Honda Civic has been around for years and it still has all kinds of problems.

The hybrid portion aside, I have never had a car that rattled in so many locations as this one (that's compared to a number of used car as well) or needed the alignment done before I bought it.

Compared to my girlfriends 09 Ford focus, her's is just built better, no rattles, no problems, and as unbelievable as it sounds if I run AC and she doesn't we get almost the same mileage.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

So after a comment like that, you just KNEW I was going to have a crash on the way home right???

Bummer--and I was SO optomistic...

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Perhaps I've been lucky... but my '06 HCHII is 3 1/2 years old... I've had maybe four or five battery recals. Usually during VERY hot days.

I've never had a bit of trouble from it... NO: brake farts, window track problems, tire wear / rear suspension issues, trunk spoiler paint wear, CVT troubles, sunvisor breakage, etc.! Just 45,000 miles of near-perfection. 53 mpg lifetime avg, and I still like driving it!

I do all my own maintenance and if I have it my way, the dealer will never, ever touch it.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Update on our car ... took it back for another look by dealer. They loaded software updates they say came out since last time they looked at car in June.

The result is improved drivability, but no change in the frequency of recals. The car now recals pretty much every time it's sat for 45 mins or more since last being driven. So, if we go somewhere for lunch, when we get back in the car and drive off, within a mile or two we're down to one or two "dots" of charge.

My wife, who drives the car daily, sees this every morning on her way to work and every night on the way home. We keep a log and record each occurence as the dealer svc people suggested.

Dealer service says they cannot find any problem and when they drive the car it's behavior is "normal". Does recal every time you start out somewhere sound normal to this group? I really don't think we had this very often at all the first 50K miles ...

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I drive 9 miles to and from work. I now generally get 1 each way. Ameerican Honda has given me the same 'its normal' comments. I guess we will have to wait until the battery fails before the problem can really be fixed.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I have less than 7k on my 08 and I have never had the battery do a recal. I can hope it won't happen to me, but it sounds like another "feature" I get to look forward to.

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

That sounds weird to me that it always happens when you start out. Mine almost always happens going up small hills where I don't need the high (3k) RPMs, and the car is very assist happy.

What is the temperature in the area where you leave the car? Does it happen more in the summer, or is this a year round thing?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

We've tried hard to identify patterns or tendancies ... if I stop for gas, or just to run into a store to get a few things, then rarely have a recal afterwards. Seems to correlate to the car being off for an hour or more and then going somewhere.

One that really blew my mind was going to the jogging trail on a sat morning. We live at the top of a hill, and basically coasted down to the trail (about 2 miles distance). Did our workout, enjoyed the fresh air, etc. ... get back in the car to go home and within a mile, falls to one dot of charge. Basically, we never used any IMA assist going downhill so how could the battery charge change any from the half-full level indicated when we left the house?

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

I've always wondered if the non-heat related recalibrations were the fault of some phantom power draw somewhere, and your car really sounds like that might be the case. Is there any chance you have a coin stuck in one of your power outlets, or that you had something wired in (like GPS) that could be drawing current when the car is off?

I understand that the power outlets are supposed to be off when your key isn't in one of the two on positions, but I recall my iPod being on a couple of times before keying in--which would indicate that it was getting power (or that I forgot to push stop the previous time).

Re: How many forced regens is too many? (Experiencing 1-2x/day average)
 

Interesting thought .... seems logical that on the hour+ restart cycle the system might start out thinking the battery charge is same as when it was shut off, then discover within a mile or so that it isn't, triggering a recal.

People have posted about the 12V battery re-charging from the IMA battery and that sounds like it could draw enough to get the system out of synch in an hour. Of course, there are many electrical circuits that could be drawing juice with the car besides just leaving something plugged into a power port. Maybe I can convince the dealer to test for a drain on the 12V to see if that in turn is pulling the IMA below where the system thinks it should be?