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martinjlm 11-15-2007 11:19 AM

Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
http://businessweek.com/autos/conten...dex_best+of+bw

Ironically, this article goes to print the same day Toyota is picketed for launching a non-green SUV and a Toyota official smashed a photographer's camera on stage.......

Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?

That's what Chrysler, Daimler, and BMW seem to think. They're all using GM's hybrid technology for their new trucks and SUVs

by David Kiley

In the next 24 months, General Motors (GM), Chrysler, Daimler (DAI) and BMW (BMWG) will collectively bring out at least nine hybrid trucks and sport-utility vehicles, including the Chevrolet Tahoe and Chrysler's Aspen and Dodge Durango, which are being unveiled this week at the Los Angeles Auto Show. But for the conditions of a joint technology agreement among the companies, each vehicle might have a badge on its side-panel that says "GM Inside."


That's right, GM, once a laggard in fuel efficiency technology, is making its nemesis Toyota (TM)—the undisputed image leader in fuel-efficient transportation—take notice by starting a new and legitimate rivalry for the next generation of hybrid trucks and SUVs, as well as plug-in vehicles. Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW all opted in 2005 to adopt GM's hybrid technology in a four-company venture, rather than to license Toyota's hybrid hardware.
Hybrid Trucks Ready to Roll

GM launched the Chevy Tahoe hybrid last month, while the rest of the companies are rolling their hybrids out in 2008 and 2009. The Durango and Aspen hybrids are expected to increase fuel efficiency by 20% to 25% over their gas-only counterparts, or about 18 city/23 highway. The SUVs will come with 5.7-liter HEMI V-8 engines with Multi-Displacement System (MDS), also known as "cylinder deactivation," as well as a feature that allows the engine to stop at traffic lights. That means, under highway cruising conditions, only four cylinders will push the SUV down the road unless it's packing a huge load. The improvement in city driving fuel economy, though, is 40% over the gas-only version.
Mercedes is using the same two-mode, hybrid transmission technology in the ML450 Hybrid, set to launch in 2009. BMW showed its first vehicle utilizing the technology from the venture in the X6 ActiveHybrid concept vehicle it showed last September at the Frankfurt Auto Show. The X6, scheduled to go on sale in the fourth quarter of 2009, can be driven on electric power only, on the combustion engine alone, or with a combination of both power sources.
It may surprise many consumers that companies as historically finicky and image-conscious as Mercedes-Benz and BMW would opt for GM's hybrid technology over Toyota's. After all, an internal study by GM last year showed that 70% of the consumers the automaker polled described GM as "part of the problem" when it comes to climate change and the impact of automobiles on the environment, whereas 70% of the same group described Toyota as "part of the solution."
GM's Solution Packs More Power

GM began its hybrid technology program in the shadow of Toyota. The Japanese automaker introduced the Prius hybrid in 1998 in the face of GM skepticism that there was a market for such a vehicle, or that it was the right sort of vehicle to carry a hybrid system. GM was developing a system for diesel-electric hybrid city buses with technology it planned to leverage into pickup trucks and SUVs. Toyota was clearly successful in terms of tapping into consumer desires and in developing a green halo that serves it well today. "There is no question that we [GM] underestimated the marketing power of the technology," says Larry Burns, GM's executive vice-president for research and development.
However, Toyota's hybrid system does not work well for towing or pulling heavy loads associated with pickups and SUVs. That's why Toyota has yet to introduce a hybrid version of its Tundra pickup (BusinessWeek, 1/30/07), or of SUVs such as the Sequoia and the Land Cruiser.

Because Chrysler, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz were interested in creating hybrid versions of its SUVs, it turned to GM's technology. Chrysler executives estimate the venture with GM saved it at least six to nine months of replicating work that GM had already done. "The GM technology was very sound and very adaptable to BMW's desire for high-performance in the vehicles we develop," says Wolfgang Epple, who led BMW's involvement in the venture.
The advantage of GM's so-called two-mode system, points out GM's Larry Nitz, who has headed the automaker's venture with the other three companies, is that the engine speed remains constant when the gears of the vehicle are changing. This is extremely important in the performance of a pickup or SUV when it is carrying loads or going uphill. The power is sent to the wheels mechanically through a series of clutches and gears. In a conventional hybrid, such as Toyota's, power is sent to the wheels electrically, which is less effective for bigger vehicles.
Greening GM's Image

GM may not be known yet for "green" vehicles. But it is on a mission to change that. David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich., says that automakers developing hybrid or electric vehicles invariably stumble over patents or intellectual property held by either Toyota or GM.
It was GM, after all, that developed the EV-1 electric vehicle, though it suffered a tremendous public-relations backlash when it killed the vehicle, bought back all the models it had already sold and then destroyed them. Nevertheless, says Cole, "In a few years GM will probably be earning more than a half-billion a year from other car companies licensing its technology, a big portion of which will be related to hybrids and plug-ins."
Will Truck Drivers Care?

The big question, of course, is whether buyers of pickups and SUVs will buy the more expensive hybrid versions of these vehicles at anything like the rate at which car buyers have bought Toyota's hybrids. The marketplace is not a laboratory. Toyota has sold more than one million hybrid vehicles since 1998, mostly Prius sedans. A Prius today costs about $23,500, according to Edmunds.com, and gets 46 mpg. Compare that with a comparable four-cylinder Camry costing around $23,000, which gets 21/31 mpg. The fuel economy numbers on the Prius are compelling and consumers who buy the car, which has a unique design and a model name synonymous with hybrids, clearly enjoy having their neighbors and peers know they bought a hybrid.
The truck and SUV market is different for hybrids. Ford (F) has had difficulty selling its Escape hybrid (BusinessWeek, 12/27/05)>, despite its fuel economy of 32 mpg (front-wheel drive), compared with 18/24 mpg (six cylinder) for the regular gas version. GM's Tahoe gets 21/22 mpg, about 25% higher than the gas version, but still low for a car buyer looking to make a big move in fuel economy. The Tahoe Hybrid price is not yet set, but the arithmetic had better be compelling to impress whatever green-minded pickup and SUV buyers are out there.
David Kiley is a senior correspondent in BusinessWeek's Detroit bureau

Peace,

Martin

bwilson4web 11-15-2007 11:32 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
Two minor points:

Originally Posted by martinjlm (Post 150028)
http://businessweek.com/autos/conten...dex_best+of+bw
. . .
Is GM's Green Tech Better Than Toyota's?

That's what Chrysler, Daimler, and BMW seem to think. They're all using GM's hybrid technology for their new trucks and SUVs

by David Kiley

. . . The Japanese automaker introduced the Prius hybrid in 1998 . . .

. . . Ford (F) has had difficulty selling its Escape hybrid (BusinessWeek, 12/27/05). . .

My understanding was the first Prius was introduced in Japan in 1997. That is what "Wiki" and the Toyota announcements claim.

As for Ford having difficulty selling its Escape hybrid? My understanding is there have been waiting lists for the car. Perhaps some of our FEH owners might offer a clue? I know I test drove one in December 2005 and thought it was a fine hybrid but not the type of sedan my family prefers.

Bob Wilson

martinjlm 11-15-2007 11:44 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 

Originally Posted by bwilson4web (Post 150034)
Two minor points:

My understanding was the first Prius was introduced in Japan in 1977. That is what "Wiki" and the Toyota announcements claim.

As for Ford having difficulty selling its Escape hybrid? My understanding is there have been waiting lists for the car. Perhaps some of our FEH owners might offer a clue? I know I test drove one in December 2005 and thought it was a fine hybrid but not the type of sedan my family prefers.

Bob Wilson

I'm assuming you mean 1997, not 1977. The nuance between 1997 and 1998 could be an issue of model year v calendar year. Or the writer could be just referring to US intro.

I was a little surprised on the comment about FEH being a tough sell. They may be looking at total numbers sold as opposed to % of capacity. Or maybe the market for FEH has levelled? I simply don't know on that one.

Peace,

Martin

KenG 11-15-2007 03:18 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
The comment about the FEH being a hard sell may have been true in 2005 as the reference is given, but not today. I recall that Ford had to dial back production in 2005 and perhaps into 2006 before demand took off. Maybe the real story here is how out of date journalists tend to be.

finman 11-16-2007 06:08 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
I don't know...50 grand for an SUV that it's owners have $$$ anyway to spend on fuel...how will that translate to the masses?

Or the BAS with NO emissions improvement and barely an efficiency improvement (but it's cheap...come buy two!) ?

where is the real leadership here? Not in GM. How in the world can 20 MPG SUVs be the answer? And no cleaner?

There's no way I'd ever, ever buy or recommend a GM product. Not when right next door is the best hybrid system to date at Toyota...HSD. Powerful, economical, reliable, and low polluting. GM doesn't get it.

SteveHansen 02-16-2008 01:25 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
How in the world can 20 MPG SUVs be the answer? And no cleaner?

It depends on what question you ask. If the question is "How can we sell our big SUVs to people who want to buy green?", then hybrid SUVs might be the right answer. It isn't about making them green, efficient, better, etc. It's about making them sell.
As far as most American managers are concerned, the only question that matters is "will it sell?".

Indigo 02-17-2008 05:18 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
I would not call GM a hybrid standard-bearer. Their vehicles offer too small an improvement in absolute MPG and the price of such vehicles tends to be very high. GM makes more progress than Ford and Chrysler, however. I/we think Toyota's system has the best improvement in absolute MPG, while Honda's system makes remarkable gains out of a fairly simple architecture.

challenger1 02-17-2008 11:45 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
I think there is a chance to make a significant impact overall. GM sold 14000 Yukons, Escallades and Tahoes last month. People looking to buy one of those vehicles is in the market for that kind of vehicle. They want a big truck that is full of luxuries. They enter the market knowing they will spend a bunch of money. If GM can sell 1400 hybrid trucks each month, what is the impact going to be? If the other manufacturers are able to do the same thing with there new hybrid SUV offerings? I'm not going to figure out the overall gas savings, but if someone has a moment that would be real nice.

Not only do I think there is a market for these vehicles, but I think people that never would have considered buying a large SUV like a Tahoe will really look into one. If all the companies that are putting these hybrid systems in there vehicles can sell 100000 combined units each year that is a significant volume. If the companies start transferring this technology into small vehicles, the costs will come way down. I really hope GM is making the proper steps. I think GM is going to leap frog Toyota in the next 4 years. Toyota is a good company but I feel offering for offering, GM is providing a good product at a fair price and ridding itself of overpriced hourly manufacturing labor. GM is going to emerge from these problems a lean, strong and hopefully more nimble company that it has been in the past.

FastMover 02-18-2008 11:23 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 

Originally Posted by Indigo (Post 161941)
I would not call GM a hybrid standard-bearer. Their vehicles offer too small an improvement in absolute MPG and the price of such vehicles tends to be very high. GM makes more progress than Ford and Chrysler, however. I/we think Toyota's system has the best improvement in absolute MPG, while Honda's system makes remarkable gains out of a fairly simple architecture.

I agree. GM is a recent player, and to state that they are now the standard for the remainder of the industry is premature. That said, I do think GM has finally made up for the market mistake they made by not realizing the market for technology as a solution to the environment, but with a twist. GM developed a system for trucks and towing that offers some marginal improvement while maintaining consistency witht the American "Big is good" market perception (that GM helped to create) of family SUVs, puckups and minivans. They are going to win big in the short term with that concept.

If a "real" energy crunch (which I think is in our not-to-distant future) occurs and starts to impact American pocketbooks, then that market perception may change -- rapidly. Most American families do not "need" pickups or SUVs -- they "want" them. There is a big difference, and it will reveal itself when the economic well being of the family is impacted. The Toyota technology makes fewer compromises for parameters other than efficiency. The HSD series/parallel technology offers superior flexibility and efficiency in the steps toward higher efficiency hybrids, full power by wire hybrids, PHEVS and even all electrics. The TCH is a lot heavier and bigger than the Prius, but in a few short years Toyota was able to transfer the technology from the Prius to the Camry, and make almost everything lighter, smaller and more powerfull. Same for the HyHi and these were only the first generation removed from the Prius. I can't wait to see what they do with current developments in battery technology, ultra-capacitors and motor advancements.

I beleive that if we see a mass movement toward lighter personal transportation with emphasis on economy and effciency, GM's success in the "Heavy Hybrids", at least for comsumers, could be very short lived. However, it's potential for commercial trucks and buses is another matter entirely and may yet ensure GM's return for the technology.

4x4Wheels 07-02-2008 08:39 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
Since I own a prius i will be bias to it, since it is really an oil efficient car/eco-friendly car, the pioneer of Hybrid Cars...

_______________________
Heard about Pules Star Plug ???

test54 07-03-2008 07:48 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
I am all for the GM hybrid technology spreading to other makers. If the technology is to become prevalent then these other companies need to get into the game and from the article it looks like they view the deals with GM as allowing them to catch up. I certainly don't think they will all follow GM's lead though. They will make their own changes and modifications to the system to allow them to tune it for their models and to also not be strapped to paying GM for every hybrid they turn out.
Although in light of the current GM problems they could use all the $$ they can get.

1stpik 07-03-2008 12:48 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
"My understanding was the first Prius was introduced in Japan in 1997."

Probably so. They imported it to the U.S. in '99 or '00. But that first generation Prius was completely different than today's Prius.

It was tiny. I remember sitting in one at a Toyota dealer back in 2000, and refusing to test drive it because I couldn't fit into it. Plus, it looked like an Echo at the time, which created a down-market perception of the car.

Most of all, it was just a gee-whiz techno car at the time, because it cost $20,000 and gasoline was $1.25 per gallon. Payback period was longer than life itself.

Today's Prius compares to the first Prius the way a 2008 Corolla compares to a 1988 Corolla -- same name, completely different car.

Ontario07Civic 07-03-2008 07:45 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
When I was shopping for a car a year ago, I went to my local ford dealer, who we've dealt with for 20+ years. They told me not to buy an escape, and that they are not selling them anyway. They were "city cars".

Hmmm...4wd, SUV...city car??

We got the HCH.

martinjlm 07-04-2008 09:38 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 

Originally Posted by Ontario07Civic (Post 179181)
When I was shopping for a car a year ago, I went to my local ford dealer, who we've dealt with for 20+ years. They told me not to buy an escape, and that they are not selling them anyway. They were "city cars".

Hmmm...4wd, SUV...city car??

We got the HCH.

Translation......"We don't have any. Darn sure wish we did, but we don't and I have no clue when we'll get more. So now I have to convince you that what you REALLY want is something else that I have on my lot"

Bobs Metallic Pearl 07-04-2008 10:20 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
Good translation Martin.
I made a similar translation when I was thinking about replacing my Ranger with and Escape hybrid.....but my interpretation was slightly different, it was....We don't have any Escape hybrids and we are not going to even try to get one as long as we have the gassers....buy what we have or nothing....I chose nothing, not really great way for business to keep their doors open.

Ontario07Civic 07-04-2008 06:55 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
Heh, could be, but like I said we've been loyal ford buyers for years. The owner said that they were being discouraged to sell the escape hybrids, they were to go to the big cities instead of out in rural areas where I am.

Besides I don't need a SUV and wasn't interested in the escape hybrid after I read the numbers.

Ford Escape Hybrid starts at $31,000 gets 6.7 l / 100 km highway, 5.7 l /100 km city (ford website) (my 07 hch is rated at 4.3 l/100 km highway we get ~ 4.5 in the summer, 5.8 winter)

So in part they were correct, it actually gets better economy in city driving vs highway

I am rural, 90% of my driving is highway, 40 k per year, 4 people in the car most times - wife and two kids.

So I am back to why would I want a SUV that's designed for city driving? It's like the honda accord hybrid...its a hybrid, but it's not green, it was designed to go faster, not have more economy - they no longer make it. It just doesn't make sense from a practical economy point of view.

But where are the ford civic or prius equivalents? We had a ford focus (2001 wagon), after putting in $70 a week in gas (@ 1.12 /l at the time) plus all the @#$#$ repairs on the darn thing, I got rid of it and got the honda and spend 35 week in gas @ 1.43 now *gasp* - still have the repairs though, our 2007 has had alot of problems - no cost to us, but has taken up quite a bit of time)

If they had a practical hybrid I probably would have bought it from them, but now I have a honda import after 20 yrs+ of buying ford.

martinjlm 07-04-2008 11:01 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 

Originally Posted by Ontario07Civic (Post 179348)
......
So I am back to why would I want a SUV that's designed for city driving? It's like the honda accord hybrid...its a hybrid, but it's not green, it was designed to go faster, not have more economy - they no longer make it. It just doesn't make sense from a practical economy point of view.
.....

I live in a city of just under 1 million people. I do not off-road. For the most part I do not tow. I do use the tow hitch for a 4-bike, hitch mounted bike rack.

The best fit vehicle for me, of those that are on the market, would probably be either a Saturn VUE Greenline or a Buick Enclave.

My family drives on vacations a lot, so I need something that can carry 4 or more people while also carrying luggage and bicycles and golf clubs. I also need something capable of carrying one or two 100 pound dogs on semi-frequent trips to parks, vets, pet supply stores, and sometimes on the driving vacations. Since I live in the snowbelt, FWD or AWD are a strong preference.

The VUE seats 5, as does the FEH. The Enclave seats 7. Both get pretty good gas mileage, especially for their class of vehicle. The Enclave is very luxurious and has a number of options that make long roadtrips bearable.

I don't think that I am alone as an urban dweller who uses CUVs or SUVs as people haulers.

Peace,

Martin

BigTuna 07-06-2008 10:42 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 

Originally Posted by finman (Post 150165)
There's no way I'd ever, ever buy or recommend a GM product. Not when right next door is the best hybrid system to date at Toyota...HSD. Powerful, economical, reliable, and low polluting. GM doesn't get it.

You know what they say, never say never (or ever, ever).

While I would of course agree that Toyota's HSD is awesome and also that GM is generally behind when it comes to fuel efficiency it is clear that GM is changing. That two-mode tranny is awesome for people that need to actually use a truck for pulling heavy things. The Volt is going to be amazing.

Right now the Vette is simultaneously one of the most powerful sports cars and one of the best mileage sports cars you can buy. Little Japanese sports cars like the S2000 (18/25mpg, 235hp) and the RX8 (16/23mpg, 212hp) have less power (a lot less) and get worse mileage. The Vette (16/26mpg, 430hp) is an awesome combination of power and relative efficiency.

Writing off GM completely for ever and ever is just silly.

Does Toyota even make a sports car?

martinjlm 07-06-2008 03:22 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 

Originally Posted by BigTuna (Post 179495)
....
Does Toyota even make a sports car?

They have one coming. Probably will be badged a Lexus, at least in the US. It's been delayed a couple times, but will eventually be launched.

test54 07-06-2008 06:25 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
Lexus LF-A reported to be coming in the 2010-2011 time frame.
http://thepassionatepursuit.com/imag...-spy-shots.jpg

http://www.aandnautodetailing.com/07...fa_concept.jpg

Also there's a rumor that Toyota is working with Subaru to bring a compact rwd sports car in the same 2010/11 timeframe. Could possibly be the return of the Supra.

Droid13 07-07-2008 07:32 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
The article makes it sound like Toyota desperately tried to license HSD for Chrysler, Daimler, and BMW trucks and GM swooped down and saved the day.

Automotive Newsflash: Crisis Averted
Today it was reported that BMW and Chrysler narrowly avoided a catastrophy by licensing Toyota's hybrid system for their 4 wheel drive SUVs. Special Ops Representatives from GM were air lifted in with GM's new hybrid system and quickly brought order to chaos. City dwellers felt safe to return to the streets for the first time in days, comforted by the 2-mode hybrid truck patrols currently underway. A few scattered burned out prototype hybrid Tundras were seen being removed from the area in disgrace.


Forgive the sarcasm... It was towards towards the author, not GM. I welcome GM licensing their hybrid technology if it will boost the technology. While choice is good, sometimes too much choice in new technology keeps prices high and bewilders people away from it. I'd still prefer if most typical people thought 40mpg was good goal, and not 20mpg, but only the price of gas will do that.

phoebeisis 07-07-2008 09:25 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
GM was behind Honda and Toyota in FE , but no longer .The 6 speed AT 4 cylinder Malibu is rated 22/32 vs the 21/31 of the AT 4 cylinder Camry and Accord . The newest Cobalt XFE matches the Civic and Corolla in FE also. Those 4 Japanese cars are more or less the best Toyota and Honda .Now, when I say best , I mean they are the cars that sell the most ,and make the companies the most $$. Of course ,Toyota was making the most $$ with its truck like vehicles , but they are more or less tanking along with the Big 3's big vehicles.

I know Toyota says it makes money on the Prius , yes, I know you can show me Toyota's figures saying they make money with it , but I still have my doubts. A 4 cyl Camry is just a lot less car/technology than the Prius ,and it is just $2000 cheaper . It just "looks" more than $2000 more expensive than a Camry.

Charlie

Indigo 07-07-2008 11:13 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
as much of an engineering marvel 2-Mode hybrid technology is, the $55k price point will keep the Tahoe Hybrid from being more than a footnote in hybrid history. Once you get above $35k, you leave the realm of "Average Joe" affordability.

Droid13 07-08-2008 08:28 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 

Originally Posted by phoebeisis (Post 179609)
GM was behind Honda and Toyota in FE , but no longer .The 6 speed AT 4 cylinder Malibu is rated 22/32 vs the 21/31 of the AT 4 cylinder Camry and Accord . The newest Cobalt XFE matches the Civic and Corolla in FE also. Those 4 Japanese cars are more or less the best Toyota and Honda .Now, when I say best , I mean they are the cars that sell the most ,and make the companies the most $$. Of course ,Toyota was making the most $$ with its truck like vehicles , but they are more or less tanking along with the Big 3's big vehicles.

Charlie

GM has always had something to put up against the Toyota and Honda more fuel efficient cars. Sunbird & Cavalier, J-2000, Sprint and Firefly, Le Mans, Monza, Vega and Astre. Even the early 80s firebird came with a 110HP V6 at one point that was pretty good in the FE department in its day. Problem is, GM always made sure these cars were crappy junk so as not to compete with their "real" cars that people really wanted. Today's Malibu and Cobalt are descended from a long long of crappy junk. They certainly do look "new and improved" but that label as disappointed many consumers in the past. Time will tell...

Whiterook 07-08-2008 09:32 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
Well, here we are 8 months after the original post, and something close to a dollar higher in gasoline costs. I think it's pretty obvious that 21mpg trucks are not going to cut it; especially not if they plan to roll these pieces of junk out 16 months more distant into the future from now. Gasoline could easily be in the $6.00/gal. range by then.

I think all the auto manufacturers (including Toyota) need to get the news; anything less than 35mpg in trucks and less than 50mpg in automobiles is headed for failure in the not very distant future; at least in terms of any respectable mass sales figures.

Billyk 07-17-2008 04:11 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
[quote=Whiterook;179811]

I think all the auto manufacturers (including Toyota) need to get the news; anything less than 35mpg in trucks and less than 50mpg in automobiles is headed for failure in the not very distant future; at least in terms of any respectable mass sales figures.[/quote]

I hope you realize there is no EPA rated passenger vehicle sold in the USA today that obtains 50mpg. :omg:

Whiterook 07-17-2008 05:14 AM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
[QUOTE=Billyk;181199]

Originally Posted by Whiterook (Post 179811)

I think all the auto manufacturers (including Toyota) need to get the news; anything less than 35mpg in trucks and less than 50mpg in automobiles is headed for failure in the not very distant future; at least in terms of any respectable mass sales figures.[/quote]

I hope you realize there is no EPA rated passenger vehicle sold in the USA today that obtains 50mpg. :omg:

They have their work cut out for themselves don't they?

"In the not very distant future" we'll be looking at $5, $6, $7 dollars a gallon gas. If $4 gas is straining the economy now, I think higher prices will cause some pretty radical s**t to go down.

Also, one can legitimately quibble with the revised EPA figures on some cars like the Prius. I know people with these cars that are only getting in the high forties, mileage-wise. But I'm having no trouble at all keeping my mileage in the high fifties; 57 to 59mpg. My average over the past 40,000 miles; two and a half years in all weather, has been solidly in the low fifties; about 52mpg and that's without really trying. If one cares enough to learn how to drive efficiently (anyone can do it) every car on the road (even Hummers) could get better mileage.

Motown 08-15-2008 06:14 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
As I read this thread, I was struck by the lack of understanding about the significance of these 2 mode hybrid trucks. The reality is that replacing a traditional SUV or pickup with a 2 mode hybrid will save far more fuel than trading in any small car for a Prius. The blog below, written by my son and based upon an article published earlier this summer in Science, explains the nonlinear aspect of fuel savings when using MPG as the metric. Simply put, there is far more to be gained by each incremental improvement at the low end of fuel efficient vehicles than in improving already fuel efficient vehicles. Since a robust economy needs a variety of vehicles, it is important that vehicles at each segment of the society be as fuel efficient as possible.

As for the argument that the FEH is only a "city car", I have a 2007 FWD FEH that is driven on expressways 90% of the time. I am averaging 29.6 MPG over nearly 37,000 miles. I agree that it is not a vehicle for towing boats, but it does a respectable job off-road. Check out this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1iHGwj7MUA

http://michiganinnovators.org/bullpen/brian/
by
Brian Barkley
on July 8, 2008 TrackBacks (0) Comments (2)
Professors Richard Larrick and Jack Soll conducted tests to see whether the unit of MPG was giving people the wrong ideas. As it turns out, they were right.
Filed under: Automotive | Fuel Efficiency

We've always used Miles Per Gallon as the unit for measuring the gas mileage and fuel efficiency of automobiles. Why? Sure, the numbers are fairly easy to work with, but just because it's easy doesn't mean we've found the best way to do it. With all the innovation going on with hybrids and making more fuel-efficient cars, now is the time to change the way we measure the fuel efficiency itself.
Duke University professors Richard Larrick and Jack Soll conducted tests to see whether the unit of MPG was giving people the wrong ideas. As it turns out, they were right; most people were thrown off by MPG : "for example, most people ranked an improvement from 34 to 50 mpg as saving more gas over 10,000 miles than an improvement from 18 to 28 mpg, even though the latter saves twice as much gas.
"These mistaken impressions were corrected, however, when participants were presented with fuel efficiency expressed in gallons used per 100 miles rather than mpg."
The New York Times wrote that "[Larrick and Soll] ran a series of experiments to show that the current standard of miles per gallon leads consumers to believe that fuel consumption is reduced at an even rate as efficiency improves. But that’s not the case.
The following graph plots Gallons Used Per 100 Miles vs. Miles Per Gallon between 10 and 60 Miles Per Gallon. Note that the relationship between fuel savings and MPG is not linear. Also note that changing from a 10mpg vehicle to a 20mpg vehicle (5 gallons saved per 100 miles) is five times more efficient than changing from a 34mpg vehicle to a 50mpg vehicle (1 gallon saved).
http://michiganinnovators.org/bullpe...mb-300x118.jpg
As professors Larrick and Soll found in their examination, many people have trouble understanding this. We should switch our system of units to GPM to avoid any confusion. Fuel efficiency would be rated with a single-digit number, the lower the better. When comparing two cars' GPM, all you would need to do is subtract one from the other. Wouldn't that be so much easier than a hyperbolic equation?

finman 01-28-2009 05:42 PM

Re: Business Week Article on GM as Hybrid Industry Standard
 
what about CONSUMPTION saved? Sheesh, what a stupid article. Less consumed to begin with is better than saved gallons.


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