Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

On Wednesday, Dodge will show a face-lifted 2007 Durango that goes on sale in August.

Engineers also have prepped the SUV for a hybrid engine that will be offered in the 2008 calendar year.....

http://mixedpower.com/modules.php?na...ticle&sid=1089

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

"The Durango Hybrid Electric Vehicle will be powered by a 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 engine. Dodge anticipates a 25 percent fuel-economy boost."

Must...not...make...sarcastic...power hybrid...comment...:confused: ...can't control...

So +25% ought to take that from 10 to 12? Whew. My grandchildren are now safe!

Darn. Hey, I tried.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

What is it about the Big 2.5 that makes the Detroit auto industry look like a bunch of pointy-haired bosses from a Dilbert cartoon? Why couldn't they at least hook it up to the V-6? Will someone just pull the plug on the power grid there - game is over.

Jeff

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Just like Tim, I could not keep from shaking my head.

I mean, if they are really looking for a substantial fuel efficiency boost, they MUST FIRST choose the ICE accordingly. Meaning a much smaller ICE, probably the V6, whose torque and horsepower is complemented by the electric motor.


But a 5.7 liter V8 Hemi ?? That thing has so much power and torque. When is the electric assist going to kick in? Unless there is a slow speed, all-electric mode.

Be Careful Not to Offend....
 

Got someone upset a few weeks ago with my remarks about the planned hybrid Escalade. These are the same class of vehicles catering to the same market as the Chevy Tahoe (thousands are making spoofy Web ads about the Tahoe).

If you ever pickup a copy of The High and Mighty, it devotes a lot of time to the Durango intentionally designed to be a hulking, intimidating vehicle. How is hulking going to be fuel-efficient?

This is not a funny story, but it still hits the mark on jumbo hybrid SUV's. About four or so years ago, then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was introduced to Slim Fast. He liked the taste so much he finished off the entire six-pack. (still in a coma after his massive stroke in Jan 2006 :( )

That's my take on hybrid jumbo SUV's - attempting to justify a vehicle that is inheritantly unsafe, oversized, and a nuisance.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Let me just state my three big gripes against hybrid land-yachts:

1. A 25-35% boost on a vehicle whose base fuel economy is 8-12 MPG is not a meaningful improvement.

2. These vehicles have such huge engines in them that I can't believe the IMA component will ever be called upon to do anything other than idle-stop.

3. The target vehicles seem to be all high-end luxury vehicles, which are priced far above the reach of the mainstream buyer.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Guys, serious question here........Is it required that in order to be a true hybrid supporter, you must hate SUVs and the companies that make them?

I for one think that hybrids are a great technology play and have a place in the automotive economy. On the other hand, I happen to be close enough to the development process of several hybrid programs to see and understand the obnoxious costs involved in developing and manufacturing them that do not get passed on to the consumer.

Furthermore, I think that SUVs as a vehicle type are necessary in an economy like the US. Let the people who like and buy hybrids do so. Likewise, let the people who need and buy SUVs do so.

Absolutely true, except that most SUVs don't get 8 - 12. The 13 - 29 mpg EPA ratings that SUVs sold in the US get is not as good as sedans and coupes, but to blanket the whole SUV market with an "8 - 12 mpg" tag is unfair. Another way to look at it is "who would benefit more from a 25% reduction in annual fuel costs? The guy spending $970 a year in fuel (EPA estimate for annual fuel cost for Civic) or the guy spending $2,538 a year for fuel (EPA estimate for Dodge Durango FFV). the Durango owner's sticker f/e won't look much better, but his wallet will enjoy the relief.

Believe it or not, there is a counter-intuitive approach to this issue. There is a point where a larger engine becomes a benefit, especially in truck / SUV world. With the right engine / torque converter / transmission integration, the larger engine "loafs" where the smaller engine would be working like a chihuahua pulling a mail-sled. For engines that use cylinder de-activation (Dodge Hemi, GM Vortec V8, GM 3.9L HVV6) the larger displacement versions spend more time in reduced cylinder mode, effectively increasing fuel efficiency. If the sweet spot for a vehicle is to operate drawing 110 hp, the GM 3.9L w/ 240 hp can operate in 3 cylinder mode. A 3.5L w/ 205 hp would not. Corvette's have big 6.0L 400hp engines, but their EPA rating is 18 city / 28 hwy. The engine is barely breathing on the EPA cycle.

That's sort of the starting point. The idea is to attempt to recover some of the development costs by focusing on segments where people are will ing to spend the money on the vehicle, but also see the largest actual $ reduction in fuel costs (see point #1 above). Also in Dodge's case, since they entered into the joint development agreement with GM, they're limited in terms of what their first product could be to vehicles that can package the 2-Mode hardware. Don't believe for a minute that they are going to stop there.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

By the way, for those who feel it is appropriate to hate SUVs and the companies that make them, here's a couple facts pulled from the same article.....

Toyota brand sales increased 6.7% to 189,694 vehicles and Lexus rose 8.3% to 27,952 units.


Though gasoline-electric Prius sales fell 23% to 7,922 units in March, Toyota SUVs and pickups were increasingly popular.

Guess it's time to start hatin' Toyota ;) And for the record, Toyota SUVs and Pickups are not as fuel efficient as GM's or Ford's.

More from the same article.......


By brand, sales of Chevrolet products fell 15% to 219,288 vehicles. But Cadillac, Hummer, Saab and Buick sales rose during the month.


For GM's big SUVs like the Cadillac Escalade, GMC Yukon and the Chevrolet Tahoe, sales were much stronger than last year as redesigned models arrive at dealerships.
Basically, the bottom hasn't fallen out of SUVs yet. There are advantages for companies that can make them more fuel efficient. Say what you want about the H2, but the H3 is competitive on f/e with other like-sized SUVs (16 city / 20 hwy, as compared to Explorer 15/20 and 4Runner 17/21).
Hummer sells 3 or 4 H3s for every H2 sold, and that's where Hummer's increased sales are coming from.

Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon get better fuel economy with a V8 and a 4 speed transmission than the smaller Kia Sorrento with a V6 and a 5 speed transmission. The gap will widen when Tahoe and Yukon get 6 speed transmissions. The improved fuel economy is part of the reason they are selling much better than the 2006 models they replaced.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

I won't deny there is a market for family-sized vehicles, or trucks with large hauling capacity. What strikes a nerve is the boom of these vehicles since the mid 1990's. That's about the time when SUV's and Barry Bonds became dramatically bigger. Usually only one or two people are riding in them. Ever see a full H2? I'm unconvinced most people need these vehicles because they got along just fine without them before 1985 - it's not like A/C, the internet, phones....

SUV's have been dissed for what they do to the environment, road maintanence, traffic congestion, fuel consumption. The least significant reason to society is the most personal one - the insensitivity and rudeness of many of the drivers. Some will say: "I'm not that jerk!" - but many people have experienced unpleasant experiences from vehicles often larger than a sedan.

People are seeking painless solutions. Just take a pill and lose weight or maintain good health....the Durango hybrid SUV smacks of one of those "painless solutions".

P.S. I take no joy that GM and Ford combined are going to eliminate 60,000 jobs in the next few years. Assuming the SUV market will boom forever while letting the sedan market go to the Japanese is factoring into this....

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

American car companies have been almost single-handedly responsible for every 10 mpg land barge created in the last four decades. Toyota and the like are recent entries, and offer very few (like 2 or 3) models that are in that class. So let's not point the finger just yet. :) So now, almost all American hybrid entries into the market are the same 10 mpg land barges, just now they get 12 mpg and have 50 more horsepower. Hey, way to go. They all raced straight past a great idea and found the quickest way to abuse it. I used to think that any hybrid was a good hybrid, but the short-sightedness and shameless greed of these car companies is more than I can stand.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Sorry. Not even close to being correct. European imported luxury sedans, sports cars, and now SUVs would hold that distinction. My point with Toyota is that while everyone's drinking the "we care about fuel economy Kool-aid" Toyota's real aim is to replace GM and Ford at the top of the truck and SUV supply pyramid. Honda is an automaker that I would say walks the talk when it comes to focus on providing the safest and most fuel efficient vehicles they can make. Toyota is focused on replacing GM for most global sales and sales leadership in the most profitable segments, which happen to be trucks and SUVs. Because they make a Prius (excellent product) they get a PR pass in all the other segments where Honda, GM, and Ford make better performing vehicles with better fuel economy on a model to model comparison.

Please provide data to support this. I have at my disposal the complete EPA report for 2006 model vehicles sold in the US. I'd love to see how you would support this statement.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

I'll admit to a slight over-dramatization on my part. However I'm not talking about sports cars, luxury sedans or mid-sized SUVs when I speak of "land barges". I'm talking about large trucks and large SUVs, sold and operated in the US. I don't live in Europe and don't know what they drive there. Toyota, Nissan and Honda are all recent (last decade) entries into American-sold large trucks (Tundra, Ridgeline, etc.). While they make mid-sized trucks and SUVs and have for some time (which I define as Explorer/Ranger sized), they only recently started making vehicles in the Excursion/Surburban size range, which is what I'm calling "large" (except maybe Toyota, who's had that size a vehicle for some time, but is arguably a small, if not insignificant segment of the market in the 70's and 80's). With that definition, I think my statement stands. Most of those size vechicles in that class offered and sold in the US in the last 40 years have been from Ford/GM/Chevy.

As for what's going on the market, here's info as listed on hybridcars.com

Current (my definition of "large" is in bold):

Accord, Civic, Insight, Prius, Escape, Lexus RX 400h, Highlander, Mariner, GM Silverado, GM Sierra

Coming up in next 2 years:

Malibu, Fit, Altima, Camry, Lexus GS, Tahoe, Durango, Yukon, Porche Cayenne, Saturn VUE, Sienna, Dodge Ram.

On that list there are:
Cars: 9, 1 is American
mid-size SUV/Minivan: 7, 3 are American
Truck/Large SUV: 6, all 6 are American

I think that list supports my point. My "10 MPG land barge" may have been over-dramatic, but the MPG of those vehicles on that Truck/Large SUV list is miserable. I'm not going to split hairs whether it's 10, 12 or 14 mpg. In general, those vehicles are among the worst in the industry. This also highlights where the American car maker's focus is. You can give Toyota as hard a time as you want, but at least they're making an even handed attempt to put the technology in a wide range of cars. So is Honda. I'll give Ford the nod if they follow through with the Fusion. The others have their sights on the large vehicle market first. Maybe that makes sense because that's where the money is for them. I still think it's short-sighted.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

In all fairness, the Land Rover gets something like 10-8mpg - right with American land barges.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

bCool. Now we can talk in similar language.

I realize that you were limiting your criticism to SUVs, but that was part of my counterpoint. If the discussion is fuel economy, vehicle size is relevant only to the degree that it contributes to poor fuel economy. Is a small vehicle with poor fuel economy better than a large vehicle with good fuel economy? European ultra luxury sedans have been imported to North America for decades with single digit fuel economy. European mid-sized SUVs are imported today that do not achieve the same fuel economy as larger US SUVs, yet US makers are singled out as not caring about fuel economy. The others seem to get a pass, but the US built SUV is commonly characterized as the enemy of the environment because people take "slight over-dramatization" as fact unless people like me actively challenge them with facts.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about product in Europe, but product imported FROM Europe.


Toyota's and Nissan's minor presence in the large truck and large utility segment in the US is not from lack of trying. It is from lack of ability to market a product that resonates with the huge segment of buyers as well as the products from GM, Ford, and Chrysler resonate with those buyers. Honda has never really ventured into that space because it does not mesh with their vision of focus on safety and fuel economy. It's not to say that they won't, but they have been nowhere near as aggressive as Toyota and Nissan. Why did Toyota build their newest plant, a full size truck / utility plant in Texaas? Because Texas is the heart of the full size truck / SUV market.


Your statement wrt vehicles of that size, f/e notwithstanding, does stand. The rationale behind it does not, but for reasons that were probably beyond your library of available info, some of which I've detailed above.


There is one reason why Tundra and Sequioia are not on that list. Toyota hasn't figured out how to scale it up to a full size truck yet. They have on more than one occasion signaled their intent to do so and on at least one occasion PUBLICLY stated that they were delaying the timing for technological reasons. GM and DCX, on the other hand, have figured it out and are going forward.

I do know of several other cars that are coming. I will stipulate that being an industry insider this is sort of an unfair point because I do have information that is not available to you and that I cannot pass on. I'm in a position where I can say "You're wrong" but not be able to back it up with data, so your point here holds.


I don't actually dislike Toyota. I think they make good product and have an excellent business model. I just get irritated when people, Americans in particular, hold Toyota up as some idyllic altruistic entity that is saving the world from the evil American automakers when in fact all Toyota is trying to do is occupy the same space that the American automakers currently occupy. GM and Ford both make high quality coupes, sedans, trucks and SUVs, most of which are very competitive with Toyota's offerings when it comes to fuel economy and are in all but a very few cases accomplishing that while providing the customer better performance. Toyota's SUVs and trucks are exempt from the "evil SUV" comments, but GM and Ford's sedans and coupe that are segment leaders for fuel economy don't even enter the conversation. Why is that?

Peace,

Martin

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

European Ultra Luxery sedans aren't much of a target because lets face it, they represent less than .1% of vehicles sold in this country. Most european luxery cars sold get good FE. The BMW 325i gets 20 city/30 highway mpg. The 12 cylindar 7 series gets much worse, but how many of them do you see on the streets compared to Tahoes?


As far as SUV's goes, I don't think anyone has stated that Toyota's large SUV's are exempt from criticism. GM and Ford are just the usual targets because their success in this segment makes them the most visible. Also most of GM's hybrid development has targeted these vehicles while turning its back on auto's. I was given a new Impala rental for work the other day and achieved 20 mpg on a 250 mile highway trip. This could certainly be improved with a hybrid engine.... or even modern technology.

While being a hybrid supporter doesn't mean you must "hate SUV's" as you suggest, most hybrid owners are sensative to the environment, and large SUV's are more damaging to the environment and are typically purchased for other reasons beyond practicality (Ego, Image, etc....) Sure there is a small percentage of the population that tows boats, and has 5 children, but my CR-V would satisfy the needs of most of the population while getting close to 30 mpg. I will also admit that part of my reason for purchasing my civic hybrid was image and my own smugness:D, but satisfying one's ego at 50 mpg is definitely an improvement over satisfying one's ego at 16 mpg.

By redirecting criticism to the Toyota Sequia and European Ultra Luxury sedans I think you are missing the point most here are making about large SUV's in general..... their existance is just very hard to defend. Of course their success really says more about the typical American consumer than it does about automakers who are simply giving them what they want.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

"GM and Ford both make high quality coupes, sedans, trucks and SUVs, most of which are very competitive with Toyota's offerings when it comes to fuel economy and are in all but a very few cases accomplishing that while providing the customer better performance."

When ANY other car company comes out with a 50 MPG hatchback with very decent performance (0-60 MPH in 10 seconds), with significant emissions reductions, then, and only then will I look away from my Prius. So far, no takers. Been 6 years here in the states...

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

One thing I have to ask of the folks that say they need a giant v8 LandWaster for their 5 or 6 kids is this: Haven't you ever heard of contraception?!

Why are families still having half a dozen kids when what we really need is a planned, phased population REDUCTION strategy.

If the average American couple was more responsible in their breeding habits, there would be no *legitimate* excuse for owning a monster-sized SUV.

Personally, I think human reproduction should be a strictly regulated, limited, and licensed phenomenon. That way, you'd REALLY help out the environment long-term.

Birth Dearth in the 1st World
 

Actually, the developed world (N. America, Japan, esp. Europe) has a leveling off or declining population. See Newsweek article.

The consumption per person is the real problem, particularly as China and India grows....

Back to the topic of SUVs, Detroit has done the best job of social engineering their product. Instead of just saying "this is a good SUV", they appeal to power, status, machismo. In other words, they are not selling the craftmanship, but the image of the SUV.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

I don't hate SUVs per-se. I own a Pilot myself and feel I have every reason to own a vehicle like that because I use it (capacity, towing, etc.). My wife also has a 1.2 mile commute - we can go a month on one tank of gas, and typically do.

I absolutely agree with Archslater's point, and it's one I've held for a long time. Very, very few people who own monster SUVs need them. 80% of them could get by with something much smaller. Even selecting say an Explorer over an Excursion is better - and Escape hybrid over the Explorer is fantastic. I'll boil this down to three points:

1) It's our own fault moster SUVs exist. We're willing to buy them, so they'll make them. What we need is a collective change in mindset that acknowledges we don't have to own something so excessive. Once we stop buying them, they'll stop making them.

2) Monster SUVs don't need to exist. There is nothing those vehicles offer that can't be satisfied by a smaller, more efficient equivalent - with the one possible exception of a very small segment of the population that has large families and large toys to pull. Even so, my Pilot seats 8 and pulls 4000 lbs. The top of my anoyance list is the Escalade, or these Tahoes with 24" custom rims. These vehicles cannot go off road, would be miserable even to take them up skiing, and 49 times out of 50 are filled with a mom, 2 kids in the back watching the DVD, and are used for nothing better than running around town. They are excessive status symbols achieved at the expense of our resources and the planet, and have no reason for being other than folks think that's what they need. See point #1.

3) Putting hybrid technology into monster SUVs is a sham (that is, the case where they're putting a hybrid drivetrain paired with the largest engine they have, like this Durango). They want the power and the power only. They want to make the monster bigger. The fact that +2 or 3 MPG comes along for the ride allows them to appease the masses and say, "look, see how responsbile we are?". I'm not buying it.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

I agree with pretty much everything you say here. Ultra lux sedans are a very small percentage of the vehicle population. But then, so is the Hummer H2. Yet the H2 is the favorite whipping boy of the environmentally conscious. It just seems a little inconsistent.


Actually this is pretty interesting. The Impala actually tests better than the smaller Accord and Camry V6 models on EPA city and highway cycles. Anyway, more to your point, it would probably perform very well if hybridized. There are reasons beyond those that are generally implied as to why certain vehicles are targeted for hybridization and others are not. Typical considerations include determining which engine / transmission combinations can be improved by hybridizing, integration and in vehicle placement of mechanicals, other vehicle systems that need to communicate with the hybrid systems (brakes, electrical systems, steering systems, HVACs systems powertrain mounts). Hybridizing a vehicle is not just a powertrain decision like "should it have a V6 or a V8?", it touches on almost every vehicle system. So the decisions to focus on one group of vehicles or another is not simply a matter of saying "We don't give a rip about cars so let's focus on trucks". As I've mentioned before, I have pretty good intel that all the domestics are working on cars. Just happens that since they all do trucks and SUVs well, they'd focus on protecting their bread & butter products before moving on to the others.



Re-reading my original post it does imply that hybrid supporters hate SUVs. That is not really what I meant or believe, but I'll accept responsibility for the interpretation. My frustration is that there is a subset who do draw the black & white line of "if it's a hybrid it must be good and if it's an SUV it must be bad (unless it's a hybrid SUV)". That gets old, tiring and irritating, especially when it's based on mis-stated information and sound-bite logic.

I also think the assumption that SUVs are more damaging to the environment than cars is an oversimplification. Which is more damaging to the environment, a 22 mpg car or a 22 mpg SUV? Both exist in large numbers. My opinion is you'd have to know a lot more about each vehicle to make any positive assertion.

As far as purchasing beyond reasons of practicality.......I love Corvettes. Do I need one? No. But I guarantee you I'll buy another one soon. It's not practical, but I wouldn't be purchasing it to be practical. Does that make me a bad person? No. There are a lot of other things that make me a bad person ;) . Should we castigate everyone who buys a vehicle that we (who is "we") find impractical? I could argue that for most people, the purchase of an SUV is for them more practical than my purchase of a Corvette. But very few people would criticise my purchase of a Corvette.

I disagree here, especially with what I've bolded. It implies a value set. Not everyone shares the same value set. There are MANY in my industry who don't understand why anybody would ever buy a hybrid given the economics of the purchase. In their opinion, the existence of such hybrids is very hard to defend. I disagree with them to the same extent that I disagree with your position on SUVs. It is all a matter of perspective and value set.

As for re-directing criticism to Sequoia and European luxury sedans, it's not so much a re-direction as asking why there is not equitable discussion. There are more Sequoias and 7-Series BMWs on US roads than there are Hummer H2s, but H2s get the f/e criticism. Tahoes and Yukons get better fuel economy than Sequoia, but they get more criticism than Sequoia. I'm just pointing out how selectively the barbs are directed.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Personally I think people should be able to buy what they afford/want.

Gas prices aren't coming back down and the operational cost of those large vehicles mentioned continue to go up.
For me, the operational cost of a Land Rover or Yukon prevents me from buying one, even though I'd like one very much.
It's not that our family can't afford it. It's just not worth the cost for what we get.
I could commute in a Navigator and spend $150/week fueling it Vs $23 in my HCH. We also have a Grand Caravan which 95% stays parked now, even on family outings.
It's $50.00 fillup 1.5x a week isn't worth what we get despite for its larger size.
Others for perceived safety wouldn't drive a small car...we don't mind.

I can only think that as fuel prices increase, the market for those vehicles will evaporate.
Going back to the subject of this thread I too was shocked that the new hybrid Durango is fitted with a fuel-hungry V8.

If Detroit remains fixed on those guzzlers we will all loose as the market evaporates them all out. A loose-loose.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Ya know, this is IT!! Why does this not get ANY mention/discussion?? It's mind-boggling to me to see these 4-7 kid families. What do they really think will be left for them in 30 years? We can't continue the population trends, something has to give and the Earth has given it's all and we still ask for more, with no thinking of where the resources will come from to support the billions. Can we be as stupid a species as it seems here?

See that cliff of denial, it's getting closer...better speed up. :omg:

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

You make two very good points here. Well taken. I'll ponder that first paragraph. On the second, I don't think people are "bad people" for buying large SUVs. I have a lot of friends that do. I just think some folks don't give serious consideration to all their options, that's all. My only counter-point to your Corvette is quantity on the road.

I think we get a little passive about this stuff because in the back of our mind no one really believes they'll see gas run out in our lifetime - and it arguably won't. I suppose when it gets to be a real problem, we'll have a change in mindset. $150 a tank ought to do it. ;)

Cheers.

Tim.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

And with that, I'm reminding you all to stay on topic. Let's keep away from turning the news announcement of the Durango Hybrid into a need SUV arguement, population control, or any other.

on-topic Good. I hope they do the hybrid technology justice, and not just lump it in to claim they have a hybrid, personally, I like the approach of hybridizing popular models to give people the choice, rather than ramming it down their throats.

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Hybrid durango with a hemi...what a joke that is. As gasoline continues to become more expensive and less easy to drill, where are these buyers coming from?

As far as choice goes, every SUV sold instead of a more economical/sensible/efficient car, the more resources are used up, the more pollution is spewed. That affects EVERYONE. Why is that so hard to see? We all breathe the same air. If your choice to use more/pollute more doesn't affect me, then you are not living reality. More useage, less to go around, prices go up, affecting people in all walks of life, EVERYDAY. It's that simple.

Use less, pollute less, we all win.

Denial?
 

What is the purpose of hybrid engines? To save fuel and pollute less - greater efficiency. Is everybody wasteful? Yes, if they have ever driven a car. We are all wastful - it's just the degree...

In the 1970's, "boat cars" like the Cadilliac and Lincoln Contential generated many of the feelings the jumbo SUVs do today. The Lincoln is no longer made today and the rest of the "boat cars" while still large, have been trimmed down. Some of them can have fuel economy in the 30s on the highway - something that is pie in the sky for jumbo SUVs.

Yes, other vehicles get sub-25mpg such as large luxury sedans and sports cars - no question and they have been around a lot longer. One trend I find disturbing is in this CNN/Edmunds article - the emergance of SUVs with sport car performance. More mass - more accleration....guess what the fuel economy will be, even if it's with a hybrid powerplant?

Back to the 1970's, credit cards were not used anything like they are today, Cokes were not as large as today - we consume more and more. At some point, its a good idea to ask if moderation is a good thing?

True to my past posts, the ultimate blame for wasteful energy consumption is the consumer - not the politicians, lobbyists, or corportations. They are the ones buying the Durangos and Escalades.

Re: Denial?
 

I'll second that! :D

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Where's the smiley for the cyber handshake? I think you and I have arrived at a common ground, approached from opposing viewpoints. Ain't dialogue a great thing?

Peace,

Martin

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Indeed. Some day you'll have to let us in on the trade secrets. Sounds interesting!

:) Smiley. Couldn't find the handshake. :)

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ashengray

One thing I have to ask of the folks that say they need a giant v8 LandWaster for their 5 or 6 kids is this: Haven't you ever heard of contraception?!

Why are families still having half a dozen kids when what we really need is a planned, phased population REDUCTION strategy.

If the average American couple was more responsible in their breeding habits, there would be no *legitimate* excuse for owning a monster-sized SUV.

Personally, I think human reproduction should be a strictly regulated, limited, and licensed phenomenon. That way, you'd REALLY help out the environment long-term.

---

Help out the environment, shoot your parents, then yourself, I assume you have no children to exterminate.

The reason this doesn't get discussed is because you Malthusians continue to be wrong with all your predictions of doom. The population trend is and will continue to be downward.
Feel good about being superior to the species you despise.:confused:

Oops, I went off topic.:angel:

Re: Dodge Prepares Hybrid Version of Durango
 

I'm glad Tim and martinjlm have made peace on this thread, but it would be sad if it got closed on population control. :(