"Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
#31
08-01-2006, 04:12 AM
Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
Originally Posted by worthywads
I thought the Civic Hybrid used to have a rear deck spoiler that the EX didn't have but it appears it does now. There are obviously some mpg/display features that the Hybrid has that could be at least partially added to the EX, but I can't quantify them.
Please explain what I missed and we can try.
Thanks
Please explain what I missed and we can try.
Thanks
#32
08-01-2006, 05:34 AM
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Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
Originally Posted by Pravus Prime
Power seats are standard with the FEH.
Thanks
#33
08-01-2006, 05:47 AM
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Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
Originally Posted by Mr. Kite
If I remember correctly, the hybrid adds climate control, various displays, rear deck spoiler and loses the moonroof. According to Honda's website, the rear deck spoiler is a $379 option. I really don't know the value of climate control and displays, but an ~$200-400 adjustment (sunroof minus hybrid additions--even more if the sunroof is worth more) is fair.
Originally Posted by archslater
The Civic Hybrid also comes with turn signals integrated into the side mirrors. Not a big deal to some, but it contributes to the more luxury feel of the car and would be worth at the least several hundred dollars. I would say that this, along with the spoiler and climate control would be a fair trade off for the sunroof, financially speaking.
I would agree that the combination of differences bring the overall price adjustment to be more of a wash with the moonroof being offset by the spoiler, climate control, directionals, display. As it is I didn't make any adjustment so my comparison remains the same.
#34
08-01-2006, 09:00 AM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
Originally Posted by worthywads
I have a problem with using MSRP when comparing the difference in cost between Hybrid vs Non, here are 4 different models I compared. I have figured out which options must be added to get as close to apples-to-apples as I can. Some of the models were easier to get A-T-A, I certainly may have made mistakes. Here's my take, using the Kelly Blue Book price which reflects actual sales throughout the USA.
www.kbb.com
Ford Escape vs Escape XLT
The XLT has standard floor mats and power seats, the Hybrid price reflects floor mats added but no price added for power seats, they aren't available.
MSRP Hybrid = 29165 / XLT = 24900 / Difference = $4265
KBB Hybrid = 279882 / XLT = 23432 / Difference = $4550
Toyota Highlander Limited Hybrid vs Limited
The Hybrid is much more loaded than the Limited, I added Leather package, tow prep package, heated seats and moon roof to get very close. The Hybrid doesn't have the luggage rack that is standard on the limited, I didn't adjust the price, but it is probably available as a dealer option.
MSRP Hybrid = 39895 / Limited = 35025 / Difference = $4870
KBB Hybrid = 37772 / Limited = 31995 / Difference = $5770
Toyota Camry Hybrid vs Camry XLE
I am posting an earlier comparison that I believe still holds true, edited for brevity.
[/i]
Honda Civic Hybrid vs Civic
This one isn't easily compared as Honda essentially has zero flexibility for adding options. All "options" are actually dealer installed accesories. The Hybrid can not be had with the moon roof that is standard on the EX, an $800+ value difference considering the Camry moonroof is $940. I don't include it in my comparison.
MSRP Hybrid = 22700 / EX Auto = 19810 / Difference = $2890
KBB Hybrid = 23494 / EX Auto = 19520 / Difference = $3974
MSRP Hybrid = 22700 / EX MT = 19010 / Difference = $3690
KBB Hybrid = 23494 / EX MT = 18742 / Difference = $4752
In this case there is an available MT and I personally would only consider the non-hybrid with the MT and included it even though the Hybrid is CVT. I don't see anything unfair about that comparison, I'd have to pay $4752 more than the comparable Hybrid and not have the moon roof. Why Honda doesn't choose to sell a MT hybrid for $800 less than the CVT, I don't understand. I don't know anything about the CVT, is it possible that it actually cost less to manufacture than either the Auto or MT? Why aren't they available on non-hybrids?
$6000 may not be correct but $4000 appears to be the minimum. Please critique.
Tax deductions and credits of course reduce these differences, but hopefully not for long.
www.kbb.com
Ford Escape vs Escape XLT
The XLT has standard floor mats and power seats, the Hybrid price reflects floor mats added but no price added for power seats, they aren't available.
MSRP Hybrid = 29165 / XLT = 24900 / Difference = $4265
KBB Hybrid = 279882 / XLT = 23432 / Difference = $4550
Toyota Highlander Limited Hybrid vs Limited
The Hybrid is much more loaded than the Limited, I added Leather package, tow prep package, heated seats and moon roof to get very close. The Hybrid doesn't have the luggage rack that is standard on the limited, I didn't adjust the price, but it is probably available as a dealer option.
MSRP Hybrid = 39895 / Limited = 35025 / Difference = $4870
KBB Hybrid = 37772 / Limited = 31995 / Difference = $5770
Toyota Camry Hybrid vs Camry XLE
I am posting an earlier comparison that I believe still holds true, edited for brevity.
[/i]
Honda Civic Hybrid vs Civic
This one isn't easily compared as Honda essentially has zero flexibility for adding options. All "options" are actually dealer installed accesories. The Hybrid can not be had with the moon roof that is standard on the EX, an $800+ value difference considering the Camry moonroof is $940. I don't include it in my comparison.
MSRP Hybrid = 22700 / EX Auto = 19810 / Difference = $2890
KBB Hybrid = 23494 / EX Auto = 19520 / Difference = $3974
MSRP Hybrid = 22700 / EX MT = 19010 / Difference = $3690
KBB Hybrid = 23494 / EX MT = 18742 / Difference = $4752
In this case there is an available MT and I personally would only consider the non-hybrid with the MT and included it even though the Hybrid is CVT. I don't see anything unfair about that comparison, I'd have to pay $4752 more than the comparable Hybrid and not have the moon roof. Why Honda doesn't choose to sell a MT hybrid for $800 less than the CVT, I don't understand. I don't know anything about the CVT, is it possible that it actually cost less to manufacture than either the Auto or MT? Why aren't they available on non-hybrids?
$6000 may not be correct but $4000 appears to be the minimum. Please critique.
Tax deductions and credits of course reduce these differences, but hopefully not for long.
It takes time to work up a feature-to-feature comparison like this. I've always asked the 'sales critter' to handle it (their job.) But I always like to see the real numbers in print.
Bob Wilson
#35
08-01-2006, 10:15 AM
Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
I hope this can sort of end the price difference debate, but I should've also added that when I went int to buy the FEH, I also had a standard Escape package drawn up, and there was only a $3800 price difference between the two, similarly equipped. (AWD, fully loaded.)
You're right, I didn't point out any research, though if needed, I could. In addition, I didn't right an article for the AP and have it distrubuted, mine was in complaint to the one that was. There's a pretty big difference there.
You're right, I didn't point out any research, though if needed, I could. In addition, I didn't right an article for the AP and have it distrubuted, mine was in complaint to the one that was. There's a pretty big difference there.
#36
08-01-2006, 10:24 AM
Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
I understand that your response isn't going to be published, but do you really expect someone to take it seriously if you don't provide facts to back up your claims?
#37
08-01-2006, 01:00 PM
Matrix vs Prius -Exactly $4000
In my own experience there was exactly $4000(well very close to $4000 after TTL) between the Matrix with side side curtain airbags(and anti skid control) and a Prius pk 4-roughly the same thing except the Prius had a backup camera(it needs it, but hard to trust it) and the magic no key key deal which isn't worth too much to me.
The Matrix is the Toyota that most closely matches the Prius.
The Prius will get double the mpg-city-that the Matrix would get and about 50% better hy 80% of our driving is city. We would average no more than 22 mpg with the Matrix, but we get 44 mpg with the Prius so far.If we assume will eventually do some hy trips it would be 25 vs 45 at best.At $3 gal we will be $1300 to the better ignoring the $3150 Credit.
Pretty easy choice, and this ignores how much it is worth to fill up for $20/wk when everyone else pays $50+.Brings a smile to my face just thinking about it!!Thanks.Charlie
I used our 2001 Prizm(Corolla) as a standin for the Matrix in mpg.The Matrix doesn't get Corolla mpg.
The Prius will "make" money or do no worse than break even against all small cars by 100,000 miles (excepting the HCH of course).This assumes you get screwed(MSRP) on the Prius, but get $2000 off MSRP on the other car.Some cheaper small cars cost a lot less than the Prius-you can get a close to equivalent Focus for maybe $17000-but it gets worse mpg than a Corolla for example.Same story on a Caliber,Cobalt.The Mazda 3 might do fairly well if you can get it really cheap.By equivalent I mean it has the safety stuff-the electronic crap doesn't matter to me(fancy stereos,NAV). The cheaper cars-Focus- end up being high trim level cars. The caliber does have good safety stuff standard, but it is a little guzzler. Thanks.Charlie
PS I spent a lot of time analyzing the the Prius vs everything else in its general class using "real world" prices-not KBB BS,and not MSRP-very few cars sell for MSRP-other than the Prius and the HCH2.The Prius did no less than about even at 100,000 miles without the Credit.With the Credit it would have been stupid to buy anything else!
I suspect that Toyota does make less on the Prius, but they aren't going to open their books for me!! Why would I car how much they make anyway??I just care what I pay!
The Matrix is the Toyota that most closely matches the Prius.
The Prius will get double the mpg-city-that the Matrix would get and about 50% better hy 80% of our driving is city. We would average no more than 22 mpg with the Matrix, but we get 44 mpg with the Prius so far.If we assume will eventually do some hy trips it would be 25 vs 45 at best.At $3 gal we will be $1300 to the better ignoring the $3150 Credit.
Pretty easy choice, and this ignores how much it is worth to fill up for $20/wk when everyone else pays $50+.Brings a smile to my face just thinking about it!!Thanks.Charlie
I used our 2001 Prizm(Corolla) as a standin for the Matrix in mpg.The Matrix doesn't get Corolla mpg.
The Prius will "make" money or do no worse than break even against all small cars by 100,000 miles (excepting the HCH of course).This assumes you get screwed(MSRP) on the Prius, but get $2000 off MSRP on the other car.Some cheaper small cars cost a lot less than the Prius-you can get a close to equivalent Focus for maybe $17000-but it gets worse mpg than a Corolla for example.Same story on a Caliber,Cobalt.The Mazda 3 might do fairly well if you can get it really cheap.By equivalent I mean it has the safety stuff-the electronic crap doesn't matter to me(fancy stereos,NAV). The cheaper cars-Focus- end up being high trim level cars. The caliber does have good safety stuff standard, but it is a little guzzler. Thanks.Charlie
PS I spent a lot of time analyzing the the Prius vs everything else in its general class using "real world" prices-not KBB BS,and not MSRP-very few cars sell for MSRP-other than the Prius and the HCH2.The Prius did no less than about even at 100,000 miles without the Credit.With the Credit it would have been stupid to buy anything else!
I suspect that Toyota does make less on the Prius, but they aren't going to open their books for me!! Why would I car how much they make anyway??I just care what I pay!
#38
08-01-2006, 04:45 PM
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Re: Matrix vs Prius -Exactly $4000
Originally Posted by phoebeisis
I spent a lot of time analyzing the the Prius vs everything else in its general class using "real world" prices-not KBB BS...
From www.KBB.com
"The New Car Blue BookŪ value reflects a vehicle's actual selling price and is based on tens of thousands of recent real sales transactions from auto dealers across the United States. The New Car Blue Book value is not calculated or based on a proprietary formula; instead it is derived from actual new vehicle sales and extensive knowledge of the marketplace. "
Last edited by worthywads; 08-01-2006 at 05:08 PM.
#39
08-01-2006, 05:47 PM
Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
I think for non-luxury Japanese vehicles, they probably aren't too far off. When you start looking at luxury vehicles, there can be a significant difference. Further research often turns up info like unpublished factory to dealer incentives, dealer holdbacks, special lease money factors (that dealers usually pad) etc.
My recollection is that Edmunds said I should get $1500 under MSRP on my Mercedes. I did a lot of research and ended up getting the car for $5800 under MSRP.
Still, it's very difficult to know what the manufacturer's actual cost is.
I'd like to point out one additional thing. If a hybrid costs $2500 (Honda's estimate converted from Yen) more to build, the majority of that cost is probably energy... to mine, heat steal, manufacturer etc. In reality, when you purchase a hybrid, you are starting out with a higher initial carbon usage than the similarly equipped model with a normal engine. So your CO2 output probably breaks even when you've saved roughly $2500 in gasoline at today's prices. Assuming 47MPG for a HCHII and 35MPG for a Civic EX/LX, that will take well over 100,000 miles. Until that breakeven point occurs, the hybrid driver has contributed more to global warming than the regular Civic driver.
If that is the case, then it seems to me that the primary advantage of a hybrid is to insulate one's self from higher potential gas prices.
My recollection is that Edmunds said I should get $1500 under MSRP on my Mercedes. I did a lot of research and ended up getting the car for $5800 under MSRP.
Still, it's very difficult to know what the manufacturer's actual cost is.
I'd like to point out one additional thing. If a hybrid costs $2500 (Honda's estimate converted from Yen) more to build, the majority of that cost is probably energy... to mine, heat steal, manufacturer etc. In reality, when you purchase a hybrid, you are starting out with a higher initial carbon usage than the similarly equipped model with a normal engine. So your CO2 output probably breaks even when you've saved roughly $2500 in gasoline at today's prices. Assuming 47MPG for a HCHII and 35MPG for a Civic EX/LX, that will take well over 100,000 miles. Until that breakeven point occurs, the hybrid driver has contributed more to global warming than the regular Civic driver.
If that is the case, then it seems to me that the primary advantage of a hybrid is to insulate one's self from higher potential gas prices.
#40
08-01-2006, 07:30 PM
Re: "Swift boating" applied to hybrid electrics
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
Until that breakeven point occurs, the hybrid driver has contributed more to global warming than the regular Civic driver.
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
I understand that your response isn't going to be published, but do you really expect someone to take it seriously if you don't provide facts to back up your claims?
