So tomorrow I am trading in my 2006 for a 2017 RAV4 hybrid. It broke my heart to not be buying another Ford as I have been a loyal Ford owner since I was a teenager. First non-Ford new car I have ever bought.


The RAV4 is a pretty nice ride. It has a lot more features than my current ride - amazing the stuff they have come up with in 12 years. :-) I got the lowest level of options (4444 package) and it is still loaded compared to my '06. And I am only paying a couple thousand more for it than I paid for my '06 when it was brand new. Getting $2200 as a trade in. Probably could have gotten more selling private party but it needs a couple things that I just didn't feel like doing.


Anyway, the lifetime numbers for the car are as follows:


115599 miles
3532.8 gallons of gas
32.721 mpg average
Best/worst tank 39.644/23.792
Gas savings versus the V6 Escape I previously had: $8667


Overall I still love the car but it is time. I am keeping my '05 for now. Maybe another year or so. Hard to tell.


Ray

 

Congrats on the new vehicle. I've always been curious about the Rav4 Hybrid, so I'm hoping you'll post a comparison to the FEH after you've gotten a feel for the Rav4. Mainly interested in mileage and how well the AWD system works compared to the FEH.

 

Nice. Let us know your thoughts once you've figured stuff out. I believe Ford licensed a lot of the hybrid design from Toyota so the transmission and other EV components should be familiar to you.

 

I've driven the Highlander hybrid quite a bit at work and have test driven the Lexus NX200h when it came out. The dual electric motor AWD setup Toyota has on these SUVs is quite different than the FEH. The Toyota's are more powerful, with more torque available down low for acceleration. The Rav4/NX200h should get the same or somewhat better MPG than FEHs (esp. for AWD).

Early AWD Highlanders would get stuck in deep snow but they fixed it by adding a switch to turn off traction control.

 

Where to start?

First of all, responding to bdginmo, it's not accurate to say For licensed the technology from Toyota - with an implication that they are therefore the same. It is well documented that Ford developed the Escape Hybrid's hybrid system in-house. It turned out the Ford system was so much like the existing Toyota system, that in order to avoid legal problems, Ford traded rights to some diesel patents in exchange for rights to the Toyota hybrid patents.

Turning to D-mac's post...

If the Lexus NX200h has awd, it's news to me. It is a small hatchback, not an SUV. Perhaps you were thinking of the Lexus RXxxxh.

The Toyota awd hybrid SUV's have three electric motors, not two. Two are in the cvt, and one is in the rear axle.

In contrast the awd Escape Hybrid powers the rear wheels with a driveshaft. That driveshaft is driven all the time, with an electronic clutch in the rear axle that variably engages depending on the output of a computer that monitors various parameters such as speed and throttle input. Thus, the Escape Hybrid's awd system is predictive. It engages when wheelspin is likely instead of waiting for wheelspin. It also engages if there is wheelspin.

Until the Rav4 Hybrid, Toyota's hybrid awd was reactive only (aka Slip&Grip). And therefore inferior to the Escape's system.

As for torque available for acceleration, I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between a gas engine supplemented by the hybrid electric system powering the front wheels directly and the rear ones via a driveshaft from the same combination; and a gas engine supplemented by the hybrid electric system powering the front wheels directly and the rear wheels directly by a third electric motor.

I suspect the Toyota's third electric motor would be subject to overheating in extended use such as in sand, and subsequent disengagement. But I've heard nothing from users experiences. Certainly my FEH's awd system has never disengaged despite, say, non-stop climbing on rough gravel roads from sea level to 4000'.

I would hope the NX200h would get better mileage than the Escape Hybrid. Since one is a small hatchback and the other is a small SUV, half of which have awd. The more comparable Highlander gets much inferior mileage to the Escape Hybrid, as it is larger and was saddled with an unnecessarily large V6. The Lexus RXxxxh's all get substantially worse mileage than the Escape Hybrid. Reports so far suggest the Rav4 Hybrid gets slightly better mileage than the Escape Hybrid. I would hope so as it is a 10+ year newer design and is more streamlined. In fact, the Escape's mileage is so good it suggests a very well done design.

I have seen no complaints that the Escape Hybrid is underpowered.

These awd hybrids may have a switch to enable/disable some functions, but they can never fully disable traction control. Traction control is necessary on hybrids because overspinning electric motors, such as with unlimited wheelspin, can damage electric motors.

 

Both of my own FEH were FWD only so I can't compare those to the new RAV4H but I do drive a '08 FEH AWD at work and from the last few snowstorms it seems that they are comparable as far as driveability in snow. My work FEH has much more aggressive (and non-LLR) tires so that probably helps some too. I will say that the RAV4H would blow away the FEH in acceleration and it seems much more comfortable at highway speeds than the FEH did.


So, overall, having had it for a couple weeks I am pleased. It seems like a great car. Roomy, comfortable, basic but with some of the bells and whistles the Escape didn't have. And in about 700 miles so far, I am averaging about 34 mpg with most of that in very cold weather. I think I will be pleased.


I still have the 2005 FEH and plan on keeping it for another couple years.

 

Thanks for the comparison. New cars always seem to be smoother than old ones. I've sometimes wondered how much of this is my imagination. The impression of "luxury" in a vehicle seems to depend most heavily on how quiet it is. The FEH certainly could be quieter at highway speeds. I lined mine with extra soundproofing, which gave it more of a feeling of being more upscale, deserved or not.

The '09 FEH had a larger engine and, I believe, some steering and/or suspension improvements compared to the '08. So the differences between a newer FEH and the Rav4 Hybrid should be less pronounced. But, not much you can do about a decade newer design.

Your mileage for cold weather is excellent. Depends on the temperature and driving, of course. If a '10-'12 awd FEH got, say, 31-32 in the same conditions, that would be a credit to the FEH. But if an FEH got 27 or so, it would make the Rav4 significantly more fuel efficient. It would be interesting to see what a '12 FEH would get in the same circumstances.

In very cold short trip/city driving, my FEH gets unimpressive mileage. As do all cars because they use so much fuel heating themselves up. Still a lot better than ordinary cars. Longer trips average out the fuel used for startup heating.

Hope you keep us posted on these impressions before your interest in the FEH's wanes.

 

This post has a lot of interesting information. First, the Lexus NX is built on exactly the same unibody platform as the Toyota RAV4, which (I think most agree) is a SUV the same class as an Escape/MKC. How can the NX be a different (non-SUV) body style? Maybe I see your point though, SUVs like the Escape and RAV4 don't have body on frame construction of 'real' SUVs like the Jeep Wrangler or Ford Expedition.

Second, according to the info I see from Toyota, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have an 145hp single electric/gas motor mounted up front, and a 50KW electric motor mounted on the rear. I haven't seen anything mentioning two electric motors in the front with the gas ICE. Does Toyota not want to tell people about them?

For the 'predictive' AWD, it sounds like you are describing the multi-mode 4WD system like current Explorers and other SUVs have. You can set these 4WD systems for snow, rock, sand/gravel, or other conditions. But from what you describe, the FEH's AWD is so advanced that it doesn't need those mode settings and knows how to adjust for all conditions automatically. That's pretty cool my 2007 FEH could have a more advanced AWD system than a $50K+ 2017 Raptor, but why did Ford keep this a secret?

If electric motors can be damaged from spinning, how have pure electric vehicles been able to work for over 100 years without overheating? These motors have a 100% duty cycle. I haven't seen this overheating issue documented before.

Finally, the RAV4 and NX200h AWD have a 0-60 time of about 8 secs, where the FEH AWD was about 11-12 secs as I recall. The 50KW rear motor really adds a lot of torque down low to help with acceleration.

 

If I remember correctly, reverse in the FEH is ONLY electric motors and the ICE runs only to charge the battery, not move the car.


Tonight I had to take my work vehicle (2008 FEH AWD) to an offroad site through about 1/4 mile of unplowed snow about 15" deep. It did great going in but there was nowhere to turn around. I backed it all the way out. It did great but about halfway out the ICE was running hard to keep up.


If my Toyota wasn't brand new I'd have loved to take it out there and see how it would do.

 

That's an interesting experiment. It does indicate the FEH's awd system can take a lot of load without anything overheating. I don't have the same confidence about Toyota's rear axle electric motor. The X-Trail had some sort of an electronic coupling for the rear wheels that was known to overheat and disengage under prolonged use. But that was not a motor.

Toyota would have had to decide between how much weight or capacity for the rear electric motor and how long it would supply power. Along my meanderings for this topic I came across a claim that in reverse the Toyota setup uses only the rear electric motor. Which seemed odd to me. Unless it really does have only one electric motor in the transmission.