[QUOTE=Billyk;166445]My contention is that corn as a food should not be used as a fuel. Makes no diff what happened this year, or next. It is almost certain that a food/fuel, "conflict" will develop. Personally, I don't care if some other source of sugar is found. Food is for eating and nutrition. It is not for fueling . . .

As if Big Oil will give up its profit margins. You've just kinda made my point concerning E85. " Looking at the figures that John documented, E85 should sell much cheaper than it is at the major brand stations." Demand will drive the price.

Enjoy your HFCS - in your Coke or in your gas tank.

 

It is very false and mis-leading to say food is being turned into fuel.
It is not.

The kind of corn that is used for ethanol does not resemble food corn.
It is a hybrid, bio-engineered energy crop. It only resembles food corn in a generalized sense. Food corn ( aka sweet corn, table corn, ) does not grow well on the acreages used, thus you could not substitute sweet corn next year, even if you wanted to.

They are turning plant matter into energy, some of the energy comes from photosythesis, and is changing sunlight into liquid energy you can put into your fuel tank. The plant matter is a "solar battery". Literally, it is.

I will gladly deliver, at my expense, 1 truck load of ethanol corn to anyone who desires it. Free of charge. You must only sign a paper that you will eat the corn.

Please PM me your address. Not everyone at once please.
I'm only going to be able to rent one truck.
First come, first served.
-John

 

Ah, John - John. . . What a guy! And how you seek to destroy a reasonable discussion with an unreasonable argument.

The corn used for ethanol is the corn used to feed cattle, or even to make distilled spirits. Now I don't care much about drinking the stuff, but much of that corn goes to milk production and feed lots across the west.

While the corn may be unpalatable to us, it may work out as corn meal, tho I don't know much about it. But I'm betting that historically, maize would not be today's corn-on-the cob.

And by the way perhaps we could drop all those plastic bottles floating out in the ocean (80% - whatever that would be quantitatively) in your front yard.

 

Yes, and no. Yes, it could be used "whole" to feed livestock, but as it turns out, this is a poor choice. Livestock cannot really digest whole kernal corn ( and now that I think of it, neither can you and I ) so it must be ground into meal or flour first, and mixed with other feedstock as well.
Guess what? Ethanol plants GRIND the corn, and then they use ENZYMES to break down the starch into simple sugars. The enzymes happily ignore the protiens and fats ( aka corn oil ) in the corn. That ground up, partially enzyme digested corn mash, with all the vitamins and minerals and protien and fat still intact comes out the back end of the ethanol plant. This "distiller's grain" is like baby food for cows. Healthy, palatable, and easy for the cows to digest. ( makes them fart 60% less methane too, but I digress... ) A 50 MGY ethanol plant will grind about 2000 pounds of whole kernal corn per minute, and manufacture about 1300 pounds per minute of animal feed out the back end. This animal feed has more calories per pound than whole kernal corn, and sells for about $75 per ton, where as whole kernal corn costs about $150 per ton. What do you want to use to bulk up your cattle for market? Food with lots of starch? Or food with lots of protien and fat? Well, to help you make up your mind, starch has 4 calories per gram and fat has 9 calories per gram. The high fat food is half price too.

And NO. NONE of the corn used in the ethanol industry is "food grade" and NONE of it (legally) is ever used for distilled spirits for human consumption. At least not in the U.S. I can't speak for Russia.

It's not all about being palatable. It's about being fit for humans.
Would you eat corn with mold or fungus? No. But you can make ethanol with it, and ethanol plants buy damaged corn when they can because it is cheaper.

Would you eat corn that was irrigated with grey water, brown water, recycled water, or sewer water? No. But you can grow corn with this sewer water or unfiltered swamp water and use the corn for ethanol. I don't think the U.S.D.A. allows you to grow food with pig urine. But hey, it's high in nitrogen, and corn will grow off it. You can make ethanol with that unfit for humans corn.

Hey, I'm all for it. That would be a cash cow. Didn't you ever hear of CRV? California Redemption Value? 5 cents a bottle baby, 5 cents a bottle...

 

[quote=centrider;166457][quote=Billyk;166445]

.

As if Big Oil will give up its profit margins. quote]

Every day I hear about Oil Trading at x dollars on Wall Street. Can anyone prove that Big Oil is controlling the action on Wall Street? Nope. Is Big Oil making big bucks? Yes. Are countries in the Mid-East and South American making big bucks on oil? Yes. Has any of these countries "nationalized" Big Oil in there sphere of control. Yes. Has Big Oil lost a bundle with this process. Yes. Does Big Oil spend any of their profits? Yes-the ethanol research at the University of Wisconsin is funded by SHELL OIL. Can anything be done about Big Oil's profits? Yes-many individual and governemental actions can alter the course. It is not Big Oil or OPEC that is the cause of over $100 barrel oil prices.

 

[QUOTE=Billyk;166500][quote=centrider;166457]Certainly it is the demand for a limited oil supply which is driving the price. But one can wonder why the CEO's are making those big bucks.

So, what dya think, Big Oil will give up it's big margin? Historic highs? Certainly the small owners of the the now almost defunct privately owned gas station would agree they're not making a bundle. Where's the competition? How many companies were there in the 70's, 80's, and 90's? What does consolidation mean?

Less competition, bigger margins. Watch for one of the oil companies to suck up the ethanol production in the mid-west.

 

[quote=centrider;166502][quote=Billyk;166500]

To think that the individual gasoline stations are making a killing -major brand name or not--is not true. There is very little profit margin for owners of the gasoline stations. Mark Smith (poster on this site) use to sell gasoline with his professional auto mechanic service and got out because the profit margin was something like .03% .

As for big oil swallowing up ethanol production--you better let our GPSman1 reply to that as he is in the business.

 

[QUOTE=Billyk;166505][quote=centrider;166502]Ooops. Sorry, but that was my point concerning the owners of gas stations. They got screwed over.

As to Big Oil - it can do it. It can by the small producers, and/or form alliances with, for example, ADM.

The tendency, which T. Roosevelt probably understood better than most people in the the govt is to exploit their size.

Big Oil, for example owns the infrastructure. Can ADM build a nationwide infrastructure?

 

No. I said a long time ago that oil is $100 per barrel because (most) people are willing to pay it. I'm not.

Figuratively, I'm only paying $33 a barrel or $1.00 per gallon of gas right now...

Via driving the same number of miles, but using 1/3 the gasoline.
Thank You Honda Insight!
-John

 

I don't know how many of us understand the spot market. I don't and the 100+/bbl is not what I mean when I mention Big Oil.

Big Oil's big profits are the result of several factors. One major factor is the reduction in competition.

"(most) people are willing to pay it." Well, yes. Rather No. Not most are willing to pay for gas at 3.50/g. Most do not have that decision-making power because their choices as consumers are limited.

As I understand what you are doing, you can be considered your own refinery. Supposing you're offered a lot of money for your refinery by Big Oil - and you accept. with the usual conditions you can't do your own refining.

Now what is your position?

By the way I paid .25/g once upon a time.

There are lessons to be learned from the past, and I think you have not considered them.