Hybrid Diesels
 

Just read an article in Popular Mechanics how VW has two diesel models available in Europe (Polo Bluemotion 1 & 2) that get 73.5 hwy mpg (converted to US gallons from 88.3 mpg imperial).

Given the increased energy density of diesel, I think its only a matter of time before we see diesel hybrids arrive. Anyone have any info or links for those?

I could see a VW Polo Hybrid Diesel smoking an Insight in fuel efficiency (and it seats 4).

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

VW et al. can't sell diesels here because they can't meet EPA emissions.

I think this year or next, VW will have the diesel Jetta up to USA standards. They had to quit selling the TDI here two years ago because of the new regs.

I'm sure that a diesel-electric hybrid would get supreme mpg, but diesel has a few probs:

It's more expensive than gasoline for much of the year. Diesel fumes stink. Also, the new EPA-friendly diesels will be expensive.

Personally, I'm a fan of diesel cars. But they've been around much longer than hybrids, yet Americans have never warmed up to them. I doubt they'll catch on in any meaningful way.

.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

BMW is also coming out with the 3-series diesel here (335d), with some pretty impressive mpg figures (22/33, for a 280hp car with TONS of torque--425lb/ft).

Diesel fumes no longer stink with ultra low sulfur diesel. I've seen a demonstration where they put a cloth over the exhaust for one of these ULSD engines and it looks completely clean when they remove it. They are more expensive just as gas engines became when catalytic converters came out.

I don't know though I could see diesel offering a compromise spot between mileage and performance. 425lb/ft of torque in the low band is ridiculous. Its also much friendlier on emissions.

I think its a matter of time before we see diesel hybrids offering 80+ mpg.
They should have pretty solid torque figures too as all diesels.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Now if they could put a diesel engine in a Volt...

Full electric power around town, then high mpg while highway cruising. Win win for GM!

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

The Polo Bluemotion (1.4L 80PS) costs 12,210 GBP and gasoline Match SE Dune (1.4L 80PS) costs 9,625 GBP.
They will require additional diesl premium to meet the US EPA certification plus hybrid premium.
Toyota is saying their next gasoline hybrid premium will be as half as the current model.
We would like to see more competition and look forward to seeing the best cost/mileage-performance vehicle.

Ken@Japan

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

As far as that goes, gasoline has a few problems also...

Gasoline is extremely volatile and anthropogenic VOC emissions are the main reason why ground-level ozone (smog) persists in urban locations in the U.S.

Gasoline engines stink worse than diesel after cold starts (in my opinion).

Diesel fuel is currently more expensive than gasoline but it appears to be because of a supply and demand issue, not because gasoline is fundamentally less expensive to produce than diesel fuel. As a matter of fact, diesel fuel requires much less energy to refine than gasoline (also a CO2 emissions issue). At least two refineries have announced plans to increase diesel fuel output relative to gasoline, so there may be less of a supply/demand issue within the next few years (the relative amounts of gasoline:diesel refined from a barrel of crude oil is actually quite flexible).

Regarding the cost premium of a diesel hybrid, Ricardo has demonstrated that they can reduce the premium (over gasoline hybrids) to about $1000 ( http://www.dieselforecast.com/Articl...?articleID=321 ). Not sure if emissions equipment is factored into this, but it should be easier to meet emission regs with diesel hybrids anyway since most NOx emissions with diesel occur during power transitions, and hybrids smooth out the transitions.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

@WXMAN: Yep, but actually diesel is a low on fuel consumption, but as a hybrid diesels? hmm I dunno about that one (even there are some issues that the wear and tear of the car parts are high) :zip:

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Diesels have some hurdles to overcome with consumer acceptance here in the US. I think part of the problem is that a lot of us are old enough to remember the previous attempts to put a small diesel engine in autos and light trucks. The "diesel bunny" (VW Rabbit) back in the 80s was pretty bad and so were a lot of GM's diesels that that company put in light trucks. The concept is sound enough, but only the heavy duty engines manufactured for the big rigs seem to be really worth a **** and that seems to hold pretty much true even today from what I've heard from current diesel owners. These folks are forever going on about how great their diesels are and then in the next sentence they launch into a litany of apologies for "the few" repairs their vehicles have had.

And then there are issues with the "smell" (a complaint from a former Mercedes diesel owner who now owns a Prius). The inconvenience of purchasing fuel, the waiting times in cold temps at start up/glow plugs, etc. No one wants to mess with that s**t except certain guys who are diehards for the technology.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

One of the interesting aspects of hybrid systems is the limitation of existing combustion engines can be dealt with very nicely. Ultimately, I'm expecting to see small, highly-optimized engines that under computer control have only one task, the efficient conversion of fuel to electrical power. The rest of the vehicle, a basic electric vehicle, handles the ordinary driving tasks.

Bob Wilson

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Citroën have been saying for some time now that they will produce a diesel hybrid, it should be available this year. We'll see. And if so, it's very likely that it will also be available for Peugeot soon. (And Ford, Volvo, possibly Mini, who are also using the 1.6 l PSA diesel.)

In any case, when comparing mpg figures for diesel and gasoline, keep in mind that one litre of gasoline weighs 740 g, diesel 890 g. The relation for CO2 emissions per consumed litre is the same as the weight relation (or very close). - Unless of course if you like many others are only interested in the financial consequences, then you only need to bother with mpg and per litre (gallon) prices.

(Footnote: the european manufacturers discussed years ago producing cars with CO2 emissions less than 90 g/km. With gasoline, that's around 3.8 litre/100 km. With diesel, it's 3.2 l/100 km. So the idea became known as the "three-litre car". Everyone soon forgot about all this, and then VW launched their Lupo 3L with a consumption of 2.99 l/100 km. Diesel.)

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

So basically you are saying the US can't keep up with Europeans who switched over in droves to diesel in the last 8+years?

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

They switched because of the price of fuel. Do that here and we would switch too. We would also stop demanding vehicles with so much power. And size.

So if you can figure out a way to change the fuel prices, then let everyone know. People have been trying to figure out how to do that for years.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

An update: it seems PSA abandons the hybrid diesel for now. (Link in french but you get the picture. Title says: "rest in piece".)

http://www.leblogauto.com/2008/02/ps...-hybrides.html

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Not a very good translation, here is their source:

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish...%2f4689125.htm

It looks like the absence of a subsidy for the development killed the program.

Bob Wilson

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

What kind of auto body part do they use so that an ordinary vehicle could be compatible for hybrid or any alternattive fuels??

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

I don't think it is fair to compary the 'diesel bunny' in 80's to diesels today.
I drove an 85 VW Golf Diesel for 6 years and averaged ~44mpg. Yes it was loud and shaked like a washing machine during cold startups but diesels have greater improved over the past couple decades due to advanced electronic ignition systems. The only electrical devices my 85 Golf diesel used were glow plugs and a fuel solenoid used to shut the engine off. I had very few maintenance issues with the engine. Engine wise, I only had to replace the glow plus a couple times and replace the head gasket and that was over the couse of over 200k miles. Reliability of the rest of the car was a different story that I won't get into...to sum it up I'll never own a vw again.

TDI's are much quieter, glow plugs turn on immediately when the drivers door is opened. Hopefully US drivers will get out of their comfort zone and give diesels a try again....they've come a long way since the 'diesel bunny' of the 80's.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

The European vehicles have to meet a CO2 emmission standard--not fuel efficiency standard. Diesels emitt less CO2 but have emitted significantly more NOx. This explains part of the reason diesels are more plentiful in Europe.
Note: the EU CO2 emmission standard is based upon a driving test that is simpler in form, easier to score higher fuel efficiency rating than the EPA test conducted in this country.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Articles in the London Times might also explain the loss of interest in Hybrid Diesels.

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol...cle3552994.ece

The 520d is 30% more expensive than the Prius and is rated within 85% of the fuel economy. Not to mention their test showed the diesel besting the Prius.

I have rented several diesels on vacations to Europe. Most were vans (Fiats!!), but the only BMW was a 530td back in 2002. We observed ~35MPG (US) driving it 1400 miles. FWIW, that was in Ireland which doesn't have much in terms of highways. So that was mostly backroad driving by US standards.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Actually a quite hilarious translation:

"PSA Peugeot Citroen altered in-depth its project of diesel hybrid car, to make it élitiste. The manufacturer even claqué the door of ex-Arranges Industrial Innovation"

"the next hybrid vehicles diesel will not be any more the "diesels of Mr. All-the-World"

"the play is from now on large open between this solution or the lithium-ion"

"PSA Peugeot Citroen thus preferred to throw sponge to continue to develop only a vehicle"

Funny translations aside, what one can gather from this article was that Peugeot was expecting a substantial French government subsidy. When the the European Union regulators got a wind of this, they immediately objected, (most likely because the automakers from other EU countries complained of an unfair competitive advantage) and threatened to investigate.

Peugeot, faced with litigation from the Brussels bureaucreats , decided to "throw the sponge" on a mass marketed diesel-hybrid, and focus instead on a luxury D-H car.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

FWIW, it appears that there are a number of diesel hybrid concept cars. Two notable ones are a 70 MPG VW Rabbit/Golf and a 40 MPG BMW X-5.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/auto...ion=2008030715

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...TO01/803040452

The CNN article is an interesting read. Can't tell if the author dislikes diesels, hybrids or both. He seems to point out the negatives for each.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

The first article was written in early March, in the era of $3/gasoline. Now that its late April in my area its now $4. This summer it is likely to spike to $4.5 and perhaps beyond. Paying an extra $2k for the hybrid diesel over a gas hybrid may result in a FE increase of 40% for a fuel price increase of 30%. That 10% differential will pay that 2,000 back fairly quickly in the era of $4 gas/$4.50 diesel.

The author of the first article is obviously not that good at math. Consider his statement "Buyers could also lose another big cost benefit: excellent resale value. Diesel engines last longer than gas engines so diesel cars are worth more after years of driving."...IMO having a higher resale value is a BENEFIT to new car buyers.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

VW diesel-hybrid is DOA
"The word came down yesterday from Auto Motor und Sport that the Volkswagen TDI hybrid Golf concept that debuted in Geneva wouldn't make the transition to production."
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/23/v...hybrid-is-doa/

Ken@Japan

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

They already had one... The GM Precept got 80 mpg. in Jan. 2000 but GM decided that we didn't need it. They decided that we needed Hummers instead... When will they wake up and smell the coffee.:lightbulb

Check this link out. http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...s/1267946.html

Take notice to this: This was in the year 2000
Batteries: Proposal 1: Lithium polymer, 350-volt, 3kw-hr usable capacity in seven 50-volt modules.
Proposal 2: Nickel metal hydride, 350-volt, 3kw-hr usable capacity in 28 12-volt modules.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Don't forget the Ford Prodigy or the Chrysler ESX-3 diesel hybrids which hit 72 MPG. This was the end result of PNGV, but Dubya cancelled PNGV and started FreedomCar to save us all with hydrogen. :confused:

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Why do they want to use hummers instead?? I mean, there are other diesel trucks out there right?

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Why do they want to use hummers instead?? I mean, there are other diesel trucks out there right?

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

One problem that might present itself in developing a diesel hybrid is that diesels start with compression not spark plugs. So using an auto stop type hybrid would be difficult because a quick startup after shutting down at a stop would be hard to create in a diesel. If a hybrid diesel used a system similar to the HCH and the battery just "assisted" the already efficient diesel engine, it could be more feasible.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Why developing diesel hybrids?
There is no logic to make this move.
The diesel car like VW Polo Bluemotion is more fuel efficient and more cleaner than current popular hybrids like Prius and Insight. And also is a cheaper than hybrids. The other advantage of VW Bluemotion line is that is cheaper for future exploitation. I just read the article about the VW Polo Bluemotion - and it is a real hybrid killer.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

The VW Polo diesel is not sold in this county because it does not meet :omg: the EPA NOx standards. Yes that is correct. The United States has a tougher pollution standard than the Europeans in regards to NOx. Have a good day.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

Mercedes Benz is introducing the E300 Bluetec Hybrid at the Chicago Auto Show early next year.

http://www.rushlane.com/mercedes-ben...w-1226125.html

"E300 BlueTEC will be a 2.1 liter 4 cylinder vehicle with 201 hp and 369 lb/ft torque and will be fitted with the same motor as seen in E400. At 67.3 mpg this highly efficientvehicle will also include a stop start system with regenerative brakes and low rolling tyres. E300 can speed from 0 to 60 mph in just 7.5 seconds."

It's becoming a reality. But only in Europe in 2012--MPG is imperial so that equals 56 US mpg. I really hope it comes stateside after that.

Re: Hybrid Diesels
 

According to research says that diesel and hybrid powered vehicles have become well-known in the U.S. country over last year. Many customers basically do not know whether a diesel fuel or a multiple would be the better way to reduce costs.