Exactly what Rick Reece said. This was in my local paper today. It was briefed the other day but here it is in case you missed it. Take this article to your dealer and ask them what's going on.


Honda says hybrids not packing large costs


By JIM MATEJA Chicago Tribune



Some folks insist gas/electric vehicles are an evil to society. Sure they get better mileage than vehicles powered by gasoline alone, and because they burn less gas, they emit less gunk into the air we breathe. But some suspect you’ll pay the price for saving gas and cleaning the air when replacing the battery pack. They fear you’ll need a second mortgage to cover the cost.
Not necessarily, insists Akira Fujimura, senior chief engineer for Honda, who helped bring the Insight, Civic and Accord hybrids to market.
Fujimura held court at a Chicago preview on Aug. 23 of the redesigned gas and hybrid Civics for 2006. Had to ask Fujimura how much new batteries will cost the average working stiff who needs a second job to pay for gas.
“About $2,000,” Fujimura said, noting that’s at today’s prices.
Not exactly pocket change, but a far cry from fears of $4,000 to $6,000 or more.
But, Fujimura added that the battery pack is covered by factory warranty for eight years or 100,000 miles (10 years/150,000 miles in California), so chances are that the cost will go down in that time while the battery packs’ lifespan will increase.
And you can expect the batteries to exceed that eightyear/100,000-mile warranty anyway.
So how many battery packs has Honda replaced since offering the Insight for 2000, Civic hybrid for 2003 and Accord hybrid for 2005?
“One digit, between one and nine,” he said, refusing to pinpoint the number, though between one and nine suggests no widespread problem.
Neither Fujimura nor John Mendel, senior vice president of Honda, would talk about the next hybrid, expected to be the CR-V sport-utility derived from Civic or the Pilot SUV derived from Accord.
But don’t expect a lot more. Honda is not Toyota, which has committed to hybrid versions of just about every vehicle.
“We aren’t trying to come up with hybrids to the same extent as Toyota,” Fujimura said, adding that if hybrid power boosts mileage by only 10 percent, it’s not worth the investment. If it can boost mileage by 30 percent, well, it makes economic sense.
As evidence of how technology improves in just a short time, in only its third model year the mileage rating of the ’06 hybrid Civic goes from 48 m.p.g. city/47 highway, to 50 m.p.g. each city and highway.
The reason is that the hybrid’s 4-cylinder gas engine borrowed the cylinder deactivation system from the V-6 Accord hybrid. Accord shuts off 3 cylinders to conserve fuel, Civic shuts off all 4 and resorts to battery power between 25 and 35 m.p.h., though we were able to get one up to 45 m.p.h. in battery mode at the preview.
Mendel said Honda expects to sell 28,000 Civic hybrids for 2006, up from 24,000 for 2005. He said that, yes, the number of batteries from its supplier Panasonic is limited, but the conservative sales estimate comes from the fact that some consumers won’t pay a premium for a hybrid.
“When we can get 30 to 40 m.p.g. from our gas-driven cars, reality sets in and there’s some resistance to paying a premium for hybrids,” Mendel said.
And Honda’s hybrid lineup might shrink soon. Insight sold only 364 units in the first seven months of this year, down from 519 a year earlier. The twoseater’s days seem numbered.
“With Civic and Accord hybrids, the question is whether we need it,” Mendel said. “This fall we’ll talk about if Insight fits and if we’ll keep it.”
As for the new Civic, for the first time all models offer antilock brakes and side-curtain air bags as standard. A navigation system and 6-speed manual transmission (Si coupe) are new options.

 

Andy was your replacement under warranty?

 

$5k sound like the price for the entire IMA system, not just the bat. The car should run fine sans bat anyway, unlike HSD equiped vehicles.

 

well, when the modules show up it will be their nickle. or i would be researching rebuilding the pack myself. no way i can spring a couple of grand for a bunch of batteries.

andy g.

 

If honda is requiring a whole hybrid replacement for failing batteries they totaly were idiots when they designed it and should have designed it more modular where just the part expected to fail could be replaced.

Definatly look at other shops and see if maybe this one is trying to take advantage of you.

 

This is actually happening because the designs were modular in design. Honda updated (some might say "fixed") the Insight's BCM (battery condition/control module) and MCM (motor control motor) when the Civic hybrid came out. The major improvement to the newer modules is improved battery themeral management which aids the battery packs longevity. Because of that, Honda will not warrant an out-of-warranty replacement battery purchase unless the updated BCM and MCM are purchased as well. The BCM and MCM have a combined list price of $2262, basically as much as the battery. If the battery pack fails while warranted, those two modules are replaced for free.

American Honda's head office in Torrence, CA is approving "good will" gestures towards these expensive 3-module replacements. The OP can probably get 50% off, which negates the cost of the updated BCM and MCM.

 

Yeah, no need for new batteries, just keep driving it till she dies. It's a normal car now.

 

If the car can be driven without a battery, it certainly gives some breathing room until a better deal comes along.

Anybody know where crashed insights might be offered for spare parts sale ? Maybe ebay ..
Could a HCH battery be modified to fit into an insight ?

Anyway OP, -- don't give up. A solution will present itself.

 

My understanding of how the charging system works in my civic is that it uses the battery pack as an alternator. I'm not sure if the charging system will work without the battery pack. You could always try to retrofit an alternator to the motor though. Has anyone tried running the car without a good pack?

 

10/4/2005


Honda insight battery update. Picked up my car from the local Honda dealership and Honda replaced my entire IMA system for $500.00. Thats the both controllers and the main battery pack. Car runs awesome and I have to hand it to Honda they really stand behind the product. My cars warranty was expired about 6 months ago on the 80K for the main battery and they replaced the entire system asking only for a $500.00 deductable which I felt was more than fair. I run the hell out of my little car as my job keeps me traveling around the state.

Happy Insight owner. Oh yeah.. forgot to mention that the dealership service manager told me this was the forth battery replacement in two years. He apologized to me and said that Honda really wants the product line to proceed.