Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
#31
07-19-2005, 04:00 AM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
Originally Posted by Schwa
I noticed one of the things 'standard' on the Prius is "High Energy Solar Absorbing Window Glass" probably helps save some on battery abuse.
aka "UV absorbing." that's it. nothin' else. Keep you seatcovers and dash from fading so quickly.
#32
08-06-2006, 11:53 AM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
Toyota has the same policy. My battery died on Tuesday of this week. They towed it in and said the tests were "just fine" and sent me on my way. They said the re-charged the battery but the charge level was very low so I drove it around to charge it up some more. The battery level looked lower than it ever has but finally started to go up again. My battery died again on Saturday. I called the service department where they told me they cannot replace the battery if it passes the tests. It was also afternoon so they said they had no one to even deal with it until Monday (tomorrow). I asked him if they would replace the battery and he told me if it passes the tests, it will not be replaced. I have two small children and live in Scottsdale where the average summer temperature is 108. It's been as high as 115 this summer. Essentially, I have to risk getting stuck because of this battery again and again if it keeps passing the tests. It's not like I can go out and buy a new battery for this vehicle. I am hamstrung by Toyota. I angrily called customer service and they are opening a case file but this is ridiculous. I was the biggest proponent of hybrids when I bought this car last year. I have told everyone how it's just like owning a regular car which it was until this happened. It is not true and if Toyota does not take care of this problem I will be their biggest public relations nightmare. I bought this car because I thought it was the right thing to do and allowed me to carpool with other families. Now I feel like they are just using me as a guinea pig to figure out the battery issue. It's not just Honda. Apparently, it's industry wide.
#33
08-08-2006, 06:46 AM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
Hi A few words about recals.
I have a 2000 5speed Insight that just crossed the 100K point. For the last 20K, I have had the MIMA system installed. MIMA lets you control assist and regen so you are not at the mercy of the on board computers. One of the MIMA users lives in CA, and has mountain climbs as a part of his normal commute, and has found that limiting assist on the climbs so that the pack can last the whole way up yields the best mileage. He has no problem recovering the charge on the way down.His report:
http://99mpg.com/people/hypermilerthermalp/
While NIMH batteries do not have the severe "Memory Effect" that NICAD batteries are so well known for, they do have a memory. I have been cycling my pack from nearly full to 1 bar sometimes several times a day, and have never had a recal. Is light use of the IMA one of the causes of recals? Can't say.
The recal is very likely one cell in the 120 cells that has lower capacity than the rest, and is determining the total pack useable capacity since the pack is a single series string. The charging system runs the charge from 20% to 80%, so the low capacity cell never gets any extra charge to try to rebalance the pack. Once you start getting recals, the system seldom gets better.
If you buy a NIMH battery from any of the actual battery manufacturers, it will have a warranty that states that when the useable capacity drops by say 20%, that the battery is considered at the end of life.
Honda seems to have set their threshold for end of life at some extremely low capacity.
I know of several people that only can use 2-3 bars of charge before they get a recal. 20% actual SOC = 0 bars, and 80%actual SOC = 20 bars. This translates into about 4AH of useable capacity.
If you only can use 3 bars out of 20, or 15% of the charge, you only have .6 AH of useable charge. You paid for 4AH, and only have .6. That should be the argument with Honda.
Hondas internal IMA monitoring software has some obvious bias towards not setting the IMA battery code of death, until things get so bad as to be dangerous.
I remenber a particular case where an Insight owner was merging onto the rush hour freeway in CA with a full pack, and while accelerating to match the speed of the freeway traffic, he got a recal, and lost all assist. The resultant loss of power at this critical time nearly caused an accident. He had been around this recal issue with Honda several times up to that point, with no satisfaction. He wrote a nasty letter to Honda, explaining that recals are not just an aggravation, but a safety related issue, and that if they do not fix the problem he would be forced to take them to court, and that he knew of many more people that have the same issues so a class action was not out of the question. His pack was imediately replaced at no cost.
Recals are an indication of a mismatch between the actual capacity of the pack and the expected (4 useable AH), and therefore are not normal but a clear indication of reduced capacity. How much reduction in capacity should be allowed before the pack is rebuilt or replaced is where Honda is stretching things way in their favor.
Mike
I have a 2000 5speed Insight that just crossed the 100K point. For the last 20K, I have had the MIMA system installed. MIMA lets you control assist and regen so you are not at the mercy of the on board computers. One of the MIMA users lives in CA, and has mountain climbs as a part of his normal commute, and has found that limiting assist on the climbs so that the pack can last the whole way up yields the best mileage. He has no problem recovering the charge on the way down.His report:
http://99mpg.com/people/hypermilerthermalp/
While NIMH batteries do not have the severe "Memory Effect" that NICAD batteries are so well known for, they do have a memory. I have been cycling my pack from nearly full to 1 bar sometimes several times a day, and have never had a recal. Is light use of the IMA one of the causes of recals? Can't say.
The recal is very likely one cell in the 120 cells that has lower capacity than the rest, and is determining the total pack useable capacity since the pack is a single series string. The charging system runs the charge from 20% to 80%, so the low capacity cell never gets any extra charge to try to rebalance the pack. Once you start getting recals, the system seldom gets better.
If you buy a NIMH battery from any of the actual battery manufacturers, it will have a warranty that states that when the useable capacity drops by say 20%, that the battery is considered at the end of life.
Honda seems to have set their threshold for end of life at some extremely low capacity.
I know of several people that only can use 2-3 bars of charge before they get a recal. 20% actual SOC = 0 bars, and 80%actual SOC = 20 bars. This translates into about 4AH of useable capacity.
If you only can use 3 bars out of 20, or 15% of the charge, you only have .6 AH of useable charge. You paid for 4AH, and only have .6. That should be the argument with Honda.
Hondas internal IMA monitoring software has some obvious bias towards not setting the IMA battery code of death, until things get so bad as to be dangerous.
I remenber a particular case where an Insight owner was merging onto the rush hour freeway in CA with a full pack, and while accelerating to match the speed of the freeway traffic, he got a recal, and lost all assist. The resultant loss of power at this critical time nearly caused an accident. He had been around this recal issue with Honda several times up to that point, with no satisfaction. He wrote a nasty letter to Honda, explaining that recals are not just an aggravation, but a safety related issue, and that if they do not fix the problem he would be forced to take them to court, and that he knew of many more people that have the same issues so a class action was not out of the question. His pack was imediately replaced at no cost.
Recals are an indication of a mismatch between the actual capacity of the pack and the expected (4 useable AH), and therefore are not normal but a clear indication of reduced capacity. How much reduction in capacity should be allowed before the pack is rebuilt or replaced is where Honda is stretching things way in their favor.
Mike
#34
09-08-2008, 12:38 PM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
Hi Ed,
I have a Civic Hybrid. Battery is slowly dying, rarely gets above half charged, and the computer is constantly trying to charge it regardless of road conditions which kills my gas milage. Dealer says condition is "normal for it age" (6 years). I guess this is similar to "hasn't failed enough" as you encountered.
I guess they could say the same thing if you had 80,000 on the car and your front struts were leaking and the car was bouncing all over the place. That might also be normal for the age.
I have a Civic Hybrid. Battery is slowly dying, rarely gets above half charged, and the computer is constantly trying to charge it regardless of road conditions which kills my gas milage. Dealer says condition is "normal for it age" (6 years). I guess this is similar to "hasn't failed enough" as you encountered.
I guess they could say the same thing if you had 80,000 on the car and your front struts were leaking and the car was bouncing all over the place. That might also be normal for the age.
#35
11-09-2008, 11:47 AM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
I have just over 80,000 miles on my Honda Insight 2001 CVT and just got the P1469 and P1669 codes. The dealer replaced my battery pack and everything seems to be working now except at about 40 or 60 MPH I noticed a vibration on medium acceleration of about 6-8 bars on assist meter. Anyone have a solution to these oscillations of about 200 per minute?
#37
11-14-2008, 08:44 AM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
I believe that certain parameters are causing the assist program to go into a loop causing it to go in and out of assist at a high rate.
#38
09-02-2009, 07:29 PM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
I have found a considerable drop in gas mileage as the recalibrations become more frequent. When I first purchased my HCH, I saw 50 MPG regularly. A colleague who purchased the same vehicle at the same time STILL sees 50. Both are 2008 HCH purchased in Spring 2008. One day last week, while my IMA battery was at 7 bars, I drove 45 to 50 for about 20 miles. 57.9 mpg according to the dash. I got onto the highway to drive another 20 and my overall was 34. I've been seeing an average of 34 mpg for months. CLEARLY the problem is the management of the IMA battery.
I have been complaining to Piazza Honda in Reading, PA for months. My car spent 3 days at Piazza Honda on two separate occasions since July 1, 2009. I escalated the matter to Honda Customer Service. I finally spoke with the representative after leaving 10 messages over several days. I finally received a callback after indicating my next call would be escalated to a manager. He was very short with me and made it clear "As long as the dealership says the system is performing properly, there is no problem". I called Roberts Honda in Downingtown, where my car just spent 7 days. Again, after working with the honda tech line, they determined there is no problem.
My IMA battery shows 4 bars more than any other value. I am a software developer and I've been troubleshooting this issue for months. My commute is nearly flat and mostly highway. One morning I left my driveway at 7 bars, saw 4 bars less than 2 miles later as I entered the turnpike and was down to 2 bars less than 10 miles later. I took photos of the dash, I found the behavior so surprising, especially after being told it is WORKING AS DESIGNED. When I asked where 30% of my fuel economy went, I received no real answer.
Based on information in the forums, I believe Honda to be CLUELESS about the battery management. I paid for an extended warranty so I pay NOTHING to replace the battery. Unfortunately, until I can convince someone there's a problem, I'll be getting 35 mpg rather than 50. In the meantime, I purchased a GREEN 1999 Maxima with 168,000 miles. It's a lot more fun to drive, so what if I get 25 mpg. I'm going green in a new way. Perhaps I'll make it a rolling billboard to enlighten others. My HCH will be parked for a few months while I speak with a friend in the Attorney General's office. It is time for SOMEONE to hold Honda's feet to the fire.
I have been complaining to Piazza Honda in Reading, PA for months. My car spent 3 days at Piazza Honda on two separate occasions since July 1, 2009. I escalated the matter to Honda Customer Service. I finally spoke with the representative after leaving 10 messages over several days. I finally received a callback after indicating my next call would be escalated to a manager. He was very short with me and made it clear "As long as the dealership says the system is performing properly, there is no problem". I called Roberts Honda in Downingtown, where my car just spent 7 days. Again, after working with the honda tech line, they determined there is no problem.
My IMA battery shows 4 bars more than any other value. I am a software developer and I've been troubleshooting this issue for months. My commute is nearly flat and mostly highway. One morning I left my driveway at 7 bars, saw 4 bars less than 2 miles later as I entered the turnpike and was down to 2 bars less than 10 miles later. I took photos of the dash, I found the behavior so surprising, especially after being told it is WORKING AS DESIGNED. When I asked where 30% of my fuel economy went, I received no real answer.
Based on information in the forums, I believe Honda to be CLUELESS about the battery management. I paid for an extended warranty so I pay NOTHING to replace the battery. Unfortunately, until I can convince someone there's a problem, I'll be getting 35 mpg rather than 50. In the meantime, I purchased a GREEN 1999 Maxima with 168,000 miles. It's a lot more fun to drive, so what if I get 25 mpg. I'm going green in a new way. Perhaps I'll make it a rolling billboard to enlighten others. My HCH will be parked for a few months while I speak with a friend in the Attorney General's office. It is time for SOMEONE to hold Honda's feet to the fire.
#39
09-03-2009, 03:43 PM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
I had a 2006 Civic wear out four tires on the back with flat spots. I had to call Honda to get the problem resolved. There was a Technical Service Bulletin explaining the exact problem and the fix. Honda did not replace the tires because I did not realize the problem until recently with slightly over 36,000 miles on the car. Did you call the 800 number for Honda America? Try American Honda Motor Company, Inc. Consumer Affairs Department 1919 Torrance Blvd. Toll free: 1-888-888-7020. Fax: 651-264-5827
I think a class action lawsuit is beginning on the Civic rear tire problem.
My battery pack was replaced by Honda on my 2001 Insight CVT at about 80,000 miles. I get 50 MPG easy and got 71 MPG over 100 miles once.
I think a class action lawsuit is beginning on the Civic rear tire problem.
My battery pack was replaced by Honda on my 2001 Insight CVT at about 80,000 miles. I get 50 MPG easy and got 71 MPG over 100 miles once.
Last edited by Insight2001CVT; 09-03-2009 at 03:46 PM.
#40
05-17-2010, 10:47 AM
Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
Boy I hate to have to be writing post, but since Honda USA has decided to turn their back on me, I feel have have no other leverage in this situation and I can only hope others considering the purchase of a Honda Hybrid and reading this post will think twice about it.
I own a Honda Insight. I've owned it for over 4 years now, and it has been a great vehicle. I have had it serviced regularly by Honda and have not missed a single scheduled maintenance visit. This June, on a trip from where I live in the California Sierras to Las Vegas, a funny thing started to happen. This drive involves a lot of hills, and traveling with my wife, we were near the load limit for the car. Driving in the mountains, you use a lot of battery - you can't help it. The good news is that you can get good recharges as you drive back downhill from you ascents. Anyhow, I noticed that once my battery got one or two "lines" below 1/2, the battery charge dropped precipitously. I mean it dropped to just 2 lines in about 10-15 seconds. Even worse, it didn't matter whether I was driving at the time or not. I tested this by pulling over to the side, putting the car in neutral and letting the engine shut down as it normally does, but the battery drain, once started always dropped to 2 lines - despite its not being used at all at the time!
Now this is not good. But to make it just a little bit worse, I still needed to bring the charge all the way back through the "drop range" in order to get it back where I could use it again. The only good thing about this trip was that the trip down to Vegas was on June 10, and the trip back on June 19. It was fortunately very mild weather in the Nevada high desert aone those dates, and I could often run without AC when at altitude. Had we been driving during the present heat wave, we would have been in very serious trouble.
So once I got back, I took the car into the dealer and explained the problem. They ran all their tests and told me the car, and the battery system was fine. I then took the mechanic who worked on the car out for a drive. I drained the battery to half, and watch carefully. Once it started to drop, I pulled over the side of the road, put the car in neutral and let the engine shut down. His jaw dropped about as quickly as the the battery did.
At this point he agreed that the battery system was not fine, but given the limited experience he had with hybrids, he needed to call Honda USA's tech advisors. They indicated that - even though the battery is "fully" warranted for eight (count 'em: 8) years, and even though it was clearly failing, that they would not fix it under warranty because it had not "failed enough" to set off their bloody IMA indicator lights. "Failed enough" - gotta love that logic!
Ok, so I escalated this to Honda Customer Service at the behest of the service manager at my dealer since their hands were tied in the matter.The upshot of all that, is that after playing over a week's worth of phone tag, Honda won't do anything to correct the problem. They do acknowledge that the battery is failing and offered to extend the battery's warranty to 125,00 miles, but what the heck good would another 2 or 3 years do me. If the battery is going to fail completely while I'm out in the high desert, that extension won't help worth beans. Further, I honestly believe that either the battery will continue to deteriorate over the next 3 or 4 years to the point where the IMA light will fail, or it will just reach a crippled point and stop detriorating. In either case, such a warranty extension is clearly worthless. They were trying to throw me a bone to shut me up and have me go away. I declined.
So now I have two choices: I can try to sell what I know to be a failing vehicle - even if Honda's morales don't mind that, mine do - or I can try to live with it until it "fails more" - perhaps leaving me in a seriously bad situation when that happens. I don't not find either of these alternatives acceptable. As such, I feel that my only recourse at this time is to let everyone I can know about this incident and warn then away from Honda's hybrid vehicles. Their battery warranty isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
My short advice to all reading this: Buy a Prius!
Most Sincerely,
= Ed Rotberg =
I own a Honda Insight. I've owned it for over 4 years now, and it has been a great vehicle. I have had it serviced regularly by Honda and have not missed a single scheduled maintenance visit. This June, on a trip from where I live in the California Sierras to Las Vegas, a funny thing started to happen. This drive involves a lot of hills, and traveling with my wife, we were near the load limit for the car. Driving in the mountains, you use a lot of battery - you can't help it. The good news is that you can get good recharges as you drive back downhill from you ascents. Anyhow, I noticed that once my battery got one or two "lines" below 1/2, the battery charge dropped precipitously. I mean it dropped to just 2 lines in about 10-15 seconds. Even worse, it didn't matter whether I was driving at the time or not. I tested this by pulling over to the side, putting the car in neutral and letting the engine shut down as it normally does, but the battery drain, once started always dropped to 2 lines - despite its not being used at all at the time!
Now this is not good. But to make it just a little bit worse, I still needed to bring the charge all the way back through the "drop range" in order to get it back where I could use it again. The only good thing about this trip was that the trip down to Vegas was on June 10, and the trip back on June 19. It was fortunately very mild weather in the Nevada high desert aone those dates, and I could often run without AC when at altitude. Had we been driving during the present heat wave, we would have been in very serious trouble.
So once I got back, I took the car into the dealer and explained the problem. They ran all their tests and told me the car, and the battery system was fine. I then took the mechanic who worked on the car out for a drive. I drained the battery to half, and watch carefully. Once it started to drop, I pulled over the side of the road, put the car in neutral and let the engine shut down. His jaw dropped about as quickly as the the battery did.
At this point he agreed that the battery system was not fine, but given the limited experience he had with hybrids, he needed to call Honda USA's tech advisors. They indicated that - even though the battery is "fully" warranted for eight (count 'em: 8) years, and even though it was clearly failing, that they would not fix it under warranty because it had not "failed enough" to set off their bloody IMA indicator lights. "Failed enough" - gotta love that logic!
Ok, so I escalated this to Honda Customer Service at the behest of the service manager at my dealer since their hands were tied in the matter.The upshot of all that, is that after playing over a week's worth of phone tag, Honda won't do anything to correct the problem. They do acknowledge that the battery is failing and offered to extend the battery's warranty to 125,00 miles, but what the heck good would another 2 or 3 years do me. If the battery is going to fail completely while I'm out in the high desert, that extension won't help worth beans. Further, I honestly believe that either the battery will continue to deteriorate over the next 3 or 4 years to the point where the IMA light will fail, or it will just reach a crippled point and stop detriorating. In either case, such a warranty extension is clearly worthless. They were trying to throw me a bone to shut me up and have me go away. I declined.
So now I have two choices: I can try to sell what I know to be a failing vehicle - even if Honda's morales don't mind that, mine do - or I can try to live with it until it "fails more" - perhaps leaving me in a seriously bad situation when that happens. I don't not find either of these alternatives acceptable. As such, I feel that my only recourse at this time is to let everyone I can know about this incident and warn then away from Honda's hybrid vehicles. Their battery warranty isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
My short advice to all reading this: Buy a Prius!
Most Sincerely,
= Ed Rotberg =
