HCH CVT vs Manual
#1
07-29-2004, 09:09 PM
As the Insight is the oldest hybrid most of my knowlege of hybirds is Insight based. The Insight CVT gets rather crummy milage compaired to the MT so I've ignored the CVT's until just lately. The old Prius CVT was also not impressive to me.
With the Insight and Prius2 being so hard to find, I started looking at the HCH and it is actually pretty darn cool in a more subtle way.
From what I've read the HCH CVT squeezes just as many miles out of a gallon of gas as the HCH MT. True? What are the pros and cons?
With the Insight and Prius2 being so hard to find, I started looking at the HCH and it is actually pretty darn cool in a more subtle way.
From what I've read the HCH CVT squeezes just as many miles out of a gallon of gas as the HCH MT. True? What are the pros and cons?
#2
07-30-2004, 06:44 AM
I've driven both, so I'll give my opinion, but I feel you'll have several differing ones here.
First, let me state that if you look in the Insight packet that you get from the dealership, you'll notice that under the "lean-burn" option for CVT and manual transmission, it's checked for manual but not for CVT. According to the packet, then, the CVT version of the Insight doesn't have lean-burn. Is this true, or did they just put that because the extra drag on the engine due to the transmission causes the car not to go into lean-burn very much, if at all, for the CVT version? The jury is still out on that one, but it would explain the mileage differential between the two transmissions. Keep that in mind -- I'll talk about it later.
I opted for the 5-speed HCH due to personal preference. What I've noticed is that the auto-stop is much more controlled in the 5-speed. I can creep 5 feet, push the clutch in and return to neutral, and the auto-stop kicks in again. The CVT is much more picky.
Looking at the mileage statistics from this board and others, it's pretty obvious that the 5 speeds get better mpgs. There's also debate about this, but I think it's for 2 reasons. First, the top gear for the 5 speed is higher than the CVT, so it will turn fewer RPMs at highway speeds. Second, I believe it's part of the same phenomenon for the Insight -- the CVT just doesn't enter lean-burn as much as the 5 speed.
Obviously, the CVT is smoother, and requires no action from the driver, and for a lot of people, that's pretty cool. However, it's been my experience, that if we're just talking mpgs, the 5-speed does slightly better. I'm averaging 54.1 mpg calculated at the pump over 37K miles, and interestingly enough, had a new record tank last tank at 859.3 miles in 13.22 gallons for 64.8 mpg. This current tank will be similar to that.
Mark
First, let me state that if you look in the Insight packet that you get from the dealership, you'll notice that under the "lean-burn" option for CVT and manual transmission, it's checked for manual but not for CVT. According to the packet, then, the CVT version of the Insight doesn't have lean-burn. Is this true, or did they just put that because the extra drag on the engine due to the transmission causes the car not to go into lean-burn very much, if at all, for the CVT version? The jury is still out on that one, but it would explain the mileage differential between the two transmissions. Keep that in mind -- I'll talk about it later.
I opted for the 5-speed HCH due to personal preference. What I've noticed is that the auto-stop is much more controlled in the 5-speed. I can creep 5 feet, push the clutch in and return to neutral, and the auto-stop kicks in again. The CVT is much more picky.
Looking at the mileage statistics from this board and others, it's pretty obvious that the 5 speeds get better mpgs. There's also debate about this, but I think it's for 2 reasons. First, the top gear for the 5 speed is higher than the CVT, so it will turn fewer RPMs at highway speeds. Second, I believe it's part of the same phenomenon for the Insight -- the CVT just doesn't enter lean-burn as much as the 5 speed.
Obviously, the CVT is smoother, and requires no action from the driver, and for a lot of people, that's pretty cool. However, it's been my experience, that if we're just talking mpgs, the 5-speed does slightly better. I'm averaging 54.1 mpg calculated at the pump over 37K miles, and interestingly enough, had a new record tank last tank at 859.3 miles in 13.22 gallons for 64.8 mpg. This current tank will be similar to that.
Mark
#3
07-30-2004, 05:34 PM
Yeah, I would like a manual but Insight MTs were impossible to get around here so I was wondering if a CVT would be ok to settle for in the HCH.
As far as the Insight lean burn goes, as far as I know from reading Insight Central the CVT lacks lean burn all together. They claim that the manual is actually less green because of the higher temps and different fuel/air ratios of lean burn. The MT is ULEV and the CVT is SULEV. Hmmmm I'll see if I can find it.......
As far as the Insight lean burn goes, as far as I know from reading Insight Central the CVT lacks lean burn all together. They claim that the manual is actually less green because of the higher temps and different fuel/air ratios of lean burn. The MT is ULEV and the CVT is SULEV. Hmmmm I'll see if I can find it.......
In addition to improving efficiency, the Insight's lean burn technology allows it to reduce HC and CO emissions. However, lean burn conditions normally results in high NOx emissions......
EPA Smog-Forming Emissions Test (lbs / 15,000mi)
7.9 - 11 (5 spd)
Less than 1.0 (CVT)
A normal zirconia oxygen sensor is only capable of measuring the oxygen content of the exhaust in a narrow air-fuel mixture range, right around stoichiometric (14.7:1). This is fine for normal operating conditions. But, when the car is running in the lean burn mode, the oxygen content of the exhaust is higher than a normal oxygen sensor is capable of measuring.
The Insight uses a LAF (Linear Air-Fuel) sensor for the primary oxygen sensor that is capable of measuring air-fuel ratios as lean as 23:1. This allows the ECM to maintain precise control over the mixture during both normal and lean burn conditions. (Note that lean burn is only used in the 5-speed version of the Insight.)
EPA Smog-Forming Emissions Test (lbs / 15,000mi)
7.9 - 11 (5 spd)
Less than 1.0 (CVT)
A normal zirconia oxygen sensor is only capable of measuring the oxygen content of the exhaust in a narrow air-fuel mixture range, right around stoichiometric (14.7:1). This is fine for normal operating conditions. But, when the car is running in the lean burn mode, the oxygen content of the exhaust is higher than a normal oxygen sensor is capable of measuring.
The Insight uses a LAF (Linear Air-Fuel) sensor for the primary oxygen sensor that is capable of measuring air-fuel ratios as lean as 23:1. This allows the ECM to maintain precise control over the mixture during both normal and lean burn conditions. (Note that lean burn is only used in the 5-speed version of the Insight.)
#4
07-30-2004, 08:52 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
I haven't driven an HCH 5-speed.
The CVT is cool but for these reasons sometimes I long for the shift:
(In this paticular order)
#1 The wife has zero interest in learning a clutch.
#2 It's irritating to sometimes force auto-stop at lights
#3 Percieved (true or not) better MPG of a 5 speed
The wife wants to trade in our Grand Caravan for a hybrid in a couple of years.
Oh boy, I thought "Now's my chance" :ph34r:
So I suggested that since she loves MY car so much why don't I buy a 5-speed?
Just my luck she wants a light green one, not my grey one <_<
The CVT is cool but for these reasons sometimes I long for the shift:
(In this paticular order)
#1 The wife has zero interest in learning a clutch.
#2 It's irritating to sometimes force auto-stop at lights
#3 Percieved (true or not) better MPG of a 5 speed
The wife wants to trade in our Grand Caravan for a hybrid in a couple of years.
Oh boy, I thought "Now's my chance" :ph34r:
So I suggested that since she loves MY car so much why don't I buy a 5-speed?
Just my luck she wants a light green one, not my grey one <_<
#6
07-31-2004, 01:30 PM
One good reason to look at the cvt is resale. There are lots of folks like Steve's wife that don't want anything to do with a MT. I read somewhere that MT's are a dieing breed, accounting for a smaller and smaller percentage of new car sales.
#7
08-03-2004, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by lakedude@Jul 31st 2004 @ 3:30 PM
One good reason to look at the cvt is resale. There are lots of folks like Steve's wife that don't want anything to do with a MT. I read somewhere that MT's are a dieing breed, accounting for a smaller and smaller percentage of new car sales.
One good reason to look at the cvt is resale. There are lots of folks like Steve's wife that don't want anything to do with a MT. I read somewhere that MT's are a dieing breed, accounting for a smaller and smaller percentage of new car sales.
But if you are trading the car in at a dealer for a new car, the dealer is not going to care. He's going to give you two grand under blue book just like he would on any other car.
my2cents..........
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